raider1001
New Member
First, let's get this point out of the way...
I would use Chinese numbers IF the Chinese government actually released unit by unit casualties numbers like the US Army instead of a vague "around 80,000 lost" published by the PLA Military Science Academy. But did the Chinese government release detailed numbers? I have been digging for a long time and I still haven't found it. The point is simple, if you refuse to explain your own side of the story, the other side's explanation automatically wins. As for the fact on whether my grandfather did serve in the 180th Division, I don't care whether people believe it or not, but I do believe that it would be a disservice to Chinese veterans' memory if the full extent of their suffering during the Fifth Phase Campaign is covered up.
This is gonna be a big post...I quote Sharder 1995, pp 233-235, which is in turn taken from UN Far East Command, Military Intelligence, Daily Summary, July 18 1951. It should be noted that 10,000 is full strength for a Chinese infantry Division, while Chinese infantry doctrine of "one point two sides" means that a unit below 1/2 strength is usually combat ineffective:
To put the above number into perspective, the PLA Military Science Academy stated in their book "History of War to Resist America and Aid Korea" that the Chinese had a total strength of 548,000 at the start of the Fifth Phase Campaign in April 1951 (Year 2000, Volume II, p 309). That is a total loss of ~280,000 Chinese soldiers. However, given that during a rout (like around 50 percent of the UN casualties at winter 1950 who later found their units a week after), most of those losses were probably soldiers who just lost their units, thus they were not permanent losses if the Chinese forces were given time to reorganize and reequip. But what if the UN forces didn't stop at the 38th parallel due to the constraints set by NATO that gave Chinese forces the time to reorganize (per question raised by George, Alexander L. 1967)? Could China lost the entire North Korea? We would never know...
Edit: It should also be noted that UN strength at that time was around 683,933, while the North Koreans had a strength of 263,800 (total Communist strength of 528,654)...So even in manpower the UN has superiority over Chinese at that time.
I would use Chinese numbers IF the Chinese government actually released unit by unit casualties numbers like the US Army instead of a vague "around 80,000 lost" published by the PLA Military Science Academy. But did the Chinese government release detailed numbers? I have been digging for a long time and I still haven't found it. The point is simple, if you refuse to explain your own side of the story, the other side's explanation automatically wins. As for the fact on whether my grandfather did serve in the 180th Division, I don't care whether people believe it or not, but I do believe that it would be a disservice to Chinese veterans' memory if the full extent of their suffering during the Fifth Phase Campaign is covered up.
This is gonna be a big post...I quote Sharder 1995, pp 233-235, which is in turn taken from UN Far East Command, Military Intelligence, Daily Summary, July 18 1951. It should be noted that 10,000 is full strength for a Chinese infantry Division, while Chinese infantry doctrine of "one point two sides" means that a unit below 1/2 strength is usually combat ineffective:
To put the above number into perspective, the PLA Military Science Academy stated in their book "History of War to Resist America and Aid Korea" that the Chinese had a total strength of 548,000 at the start of the Fifth Phase Campaign in April 1951 (Year 2000, Volume II, p 309). That is a total loss of ~280,000 Chinese soldiers. However, given that during a rout (like around 50 percent of the UN casualties at winter 1950 who later found their units a week after), most of those losses were probably soldiers who just lost their units, thus they were not permanent losses if the Chinese forces were given time to reorganize and reequip. But what if the UN forces didn't stop at the 38th parallel due to the constraints set by NATO that gave Chinese forces the time to reorganize (per question raised by George, Alexander L. 1967)? Could China lost the entire North Korea? We would never know...
Edit: It should also be noted that UN strength at that time was around 683,933, while the North Koreans had a strength of 263,800 (total Communist strength of 528,654)...So even in manpower the UN has superiority over Chinese at that time.
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but from what I have seen so far the entire textbook production in the US are based on selective memories, every bit of the real brutal acts commited by the anglo americans during the early years of the US are completely covered up. Now, being a BME major I am no expert..