The Kashmir conflict 2025.

leibowitz

Junior Member
Seems pretty clear that Pakistan does not have the standoff strike capabilities of India and had no interest in matching India all the way up the escalation ladder. So once the tit for tat shifted to ballistic missile strikes, it is natural that Pakistan would back off.

Some of the claims from Indian posters here (N00B) are not credible, though. There is no evidence supporting the destruction of multiple Pakistani airbases or damage to Pakistan's nuclear storage facilities
 

bebops

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why did the Iran dome worked so well. I saw a video showed all incoming missiles from Isarel were shot down. Was it because during the missile flight, it allowed Iran's defense system more than enough time to detect and shot it down?

In my opinion, Pl15 is the winner. But China has to work on its ground defense system more?
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
India should be reconsidering its decisions in everything right now.

The big issue is that leaving the Su-57 program and acquiring Rafales were personally pushed for by Modi. He believes that Rafale EW was superior to Su-57 physical stealth with IWB and shaping.

This turned out to be a huge mistake as Su-57 has been used in Ukraine yet never caught on radar or shot down, while Rafale gets shot down 100 km inside India. It is clear now that no amount of EW can compensate for physical vulnerability.

Their west worship has resulted in the worst blunder in IAF history.

I am very confident that if that had been a Su-57 and not a Rafale, at the very least, it wouldn't have been shot down minutes after takeoff in India's own territory.
I think it had much more to do with (1)general realigning away from Russia, which became too dominant in Indian air power, (2)higher prestige factor of French technology, supported by stellar performance of Mirage 2000s over Kargil in 1999(Air marshalls and pilots also like to fly french supercars, whether it's state property or no doesn't matter); (3)Russia using India to finance finishing its new products and bug them out, and (4)delays with Su-57 program (for all the jokes about Rafales, it's unlikely India would've had 14 su-57s in service by may 7th, 2025). Plus, as we know, Russia wasn't exactly willing to finance the twin-seater version of Su-57 it doesn't need itself(turned out it needs it anyway, but that happened much later).

After 2019 Balakot, India needed answer immediately - Rafale (which back then only started getting international traction) could do it. And of course, french sang all the songs of self-praise they could(like, you want to sell it or no?).

Chosing b/n Su-57 stealth and Rafale EW by itself is meaningless, b/c Su-57 EW is 2 decades younger and massively more powerful than Rafale one. At least, of course, in theory.
And this is something to keep in mind - when J-10C damaged credibility of overly developed EW birds, that includes Su-57 more than anything else. It's a fighter plane with the largest self-defense ew suit period.
 
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Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
I would like to highlight especially the operational incompetence/negligence of the IAF.

We have two options: either it was an obvious negligence regarding the operational requirements of the mission or an evident operational incompetence of the IAF.

Negligence -

Perhaps when planning the mission it was anticipated that the Meteor would not be needed, or they were in a different weapons configuration perhaps focused on ground attack, or they simply underestimated Pakistan's capability and response.

All this is negligence. One cannot expect India not to have BVR missiles, because they do. After the 2019 air conflict, where India had MICA and R-77 (80 km) and Pakistan had AIM-120C5 (105 km), India took 3 measures:
1) demanded accelerated delivery of the 250 Meteors that it had purchased in the Rafale package, in July 2020, the Rafale + Meteor duo became operational in India; 2) purchased 400 R-77-1 (RVV-SD), a newer version of the Russian R-77 with a range of 110 km;
3) Accelerated the national BVRs, Astra Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3. Put the Astra Mk1 (110 km) into operation in the same year in 2019.

A video appeared on Twitter of an Indian Rafale taking off with 2x SCALP, 2x GBU, and 2x MICA… In other words, no BVR missiles… if the Rafale took off with this payload, they could not do anything about the J-10C and the PL-15. The first point of negligence.

In addition, if there was a restriction on the operational use of the Rafale, the Rafale mission was thankless. Attacking enemy territory without being able to attack air defenses is a very risky mission. This means that Pakistani air defense assets (SAMs + fighters) were free to operate at all times, while the Indians could only react.

To carry out a mission based on these premises in a relatively safe manner, one would need at least powerful EW aircraft and ideally to execute the deep strikes only with stealth aircraft. If the use of AEW&C as support was not authorized, this was a total operational negligence on the part of the IAF. Otherwise, the outcome could have been different than it was. Even with a lot of planning and excellent execution.

They thought that they would not get any reaction from Pakistan, due to a supposed surprise attack, and flew without AWACS cover and their own sensors were turned off so as not to be detected. This is yet another point of negligence.

Incompetence -

Now what I see is an endless debate about "PL-15 and J-10 vs Rafale"... but what it seems to me and what Pakistan made clear was that the big star of that night was the Saab 2000 AEW&C aircraft associated with the Chinese AWACS, which were the fundamental systems for the entire Command, Control and Communication (C3) structure in a Network Centric Warfare (NCW) architecture. It was this structural capability that outperformed the Indian fighters, or at least took its toll on the strike force.

It is no longer just about fighters + BVR missiles plus AWACS/AEW&C, by no means, it is about the entire NCW (radars, C3I, satellites, data link, IFF, ISR, SIGINT/ELINT/MALE, etc.), without which there is no more modern air warfare.

This is where the question comes in. If India did have AWACS support, what we saw was total incompetence from the IAF.

If you are an operator inside an AWACS, you have under your command a Mission Crew Commander (MCC), who is responsible for interpreting the tactical picture in real time. Now imagine that you see Pakistani fighters on your radar flying at high altitude, tens of km from the border, at high speed. You detect sustained acceleration, ballistic climb, then deceleration and evasive maneuvers... the classic pattern of preparation for a maximum-range BVR launch.

But you also see other enemy fighters, closer to the border, flying low, almost begging you to take the bait and chase them. If you do, you will enter the high probability zone of impact of the missiles fired by those coming from behind.

I wonder:

Did no one on that Indian AWACS — neither the MCC nor his team — recognize this pattern?

So many hours in the simulator, so many joint exercises with NATO forces and they weren't warned?

No one thought: "Why are they flying so high and so far? Why are they accelerating and climbing? Are they trying to give more kinetic energy to their missiles? What if these missiles are not the exported PL-15E, but the original Chinese PL-15s, which have a much longer range?

And those on the ground...

Where was the Chief of the Air Operations Command?

What did the Operational Planning Officers do?

Did they fall asleep?

In a split second, I withdraw my planes from that area, take advantage of the massiveness of my force, launch a multi-azimuth strike with Rafale and Su-30MKI, saturating their defenses, and activate my relieving CAPs to maintain the pressure. And while this is happening in the air, I am preparing ballistic missiles and crossing their forward bases and runways. There were options. But doctrinal rigidity ended up subjugating the IAF itself.

Outdated tactics, governed by the old USSR standards, where the pilot has practically no decision about Nothing.

If there really was an AWACS, it shows a lack of support from the command of the operation or the Indian AWACS are much inferior to those that Pakistan has, because if it is confirmed that there were Indian AWACS in the operation, the conversations of the Indian pilots show that they did not know where the PAF fighters were.

Or it was a combination of both, both negligence and incompetence. It would be even worse for India if they had assembled obsolete formations to attack Pakistan, perhaps a WWII-style “combat box” bomber package. Combat box is the configuration that the Americans used in WWII when they flew without escorts with a strike package composed 100% of bombers. They used something similar (not exactly the same) until Operation Rolling Thunder, where they lost 1,000 aircraft in Vietnam and implemented the “Strike Package” doctrine with Wild Weasel, AWACS, many escorts and only 40% of the strike package formation carried out ground attacks.

Furthermore, if 70 aircraft actually took off in this formation for ground attack, that was definitely impressive. In the 1991 Gulf War, the USAF assembled strike packages with ground attack fighters (F-16), air-to-air combat (F15) and electronic warfare (F-4 Wild Weasel). The largest package was Package Q which had 78 aircraft – and it was chaos because they had difficulty coordinating so many aircraft and ended up with two F-16s shot down. After that, the USAF significantly reduced the size of the strike packages to make them more coordinated.

Another factor to analyze and which seems to be more relevant is the performance of the Chinese PL15 BVR missiles. In fact, it has been shown that the defenses of the Rafale – especially the Spectra – were insufficient in relation to this missile.
 

00CuriousObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
P15E12203010, in Pandher
View attachment 151863

Allegedly another part of this missile

株洲宏达 / Zhuzhou Hongda is a company that manufactures military-grade capacitors

9D68P37.jpeg
 

iewgnem

Senior Member
Registered Member
Lmao and what was the alternative? Wasting hundreds of strike munitions that Pakistan already doesn't have many of? A ground invasion? Nukes? It was known well in advance of this conflict that India would have escalation dominance if the conflict came down to hurling munitions across the border, simply due to the size of their stockpiles. The fact that the conflict appears it has ended without large civilian casualties is objectively a good thing for the stability of the region.
India doesn't have escalation dominance, India has less escalation resistance due to both their cultural affinity for stupid decisions and their lack of external constraints. If things do escalate Pakistan has an inifinte magazine depth, India does not, Pakistan has free upgrade path to far more advanced weapons, India does not, but most importantly, India has FAR, FAR more to lose than Pakistan.

If we escalate to naval engagements, India can lose carriers, if we start bombing ports, Indian can lose significant trade, if we start bombing infrastructure, India has a lot of FDI to lose, and if we start dragging foreign power into it, India can be crippled by Chinese sanctions, while India got no one to help them against Pakistan.
 

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
Pakistani media is reporting India is violating the ceasefire in Neelum Valley, Pakistani Kashmir; suggesting that Modi agreed to the ceasefire for ulterior motives of deception, to buy time. If true, it's straight out of Israel's playbook.
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theyve been literally doing this for past 2 days.

Reaction of the extreme right wing Indian media has been less than stellar, they were promised Akhand Bharat or 4 pieces of Pakistan, then they folded hours within Pakistan's first response.

So Modi now finds itself in bit of a situation.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
I wonder:

Did no one on that Indian AWACS — neither the MCC nor his team — recognize this pattern?
I assume it's impossible.
I.e. we're missing something here.

Also, note that most Pakistani claims(as well as all debris) happened with one specific - northertn - group.

In a split second, I withdraw my planes from that area, take advantage of the massiveness of my force, launch a multi-azimuth strike with Rafale and Su-30MKI, saturating their defenses, and activate my relieving CAPs to maintain the pressure. And while this is happening in the air, I am preparing ballistic missiles and crossing their forward bases and runways. There were options. But doctrinal rigidity ended up subjugating the IAF itself.

Outdated tactics, governed by the old USSR standards, where the pilot has practically no decision about Nothing.
(1)i frankly think this is exactly what they tried to do. And it's telling, that among aircraft most likely to be lost, it's Rafales(which probably were in the front of the formation, as the most survivable assets doing closer range AASM strikes), Mirage(also AASM bomber), and... likely mig-29(?), which probably was in there to cover the retreat of damaged force or something like that(too early for rampages to be delivered, and no signs of kh-35s; i.e. probably it was that very CAP reinforcement you mention).

(2)IAF doesn't operate by Soviet standards*. Much like PAF, it's a descendand service of RAF.

*to be exact, some parts of the force do(or did), b/c it makes most sense for them - mig-21s and mig-29s did indeed operate as classic fighter-interceptors under GCI. Hard to tell about Mig-29UPGs though, they may have changed that.
 
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I think the fact that IAF doesn’t even acknowledge that aerial combat occurred and neither confirms nor denies planes were shot down speaks volumes… Galwan level PTSD maybe. They keep on making the same mistakes and underestimating China. 5 years ago they assumed that Chinese were single child soldiers and soft. Five years later they assumed that Chinese aerial assets were junk. Both times they got savaged, but I don’t think they will ever learn.
 
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