The Chinese in WW2 (Pic thread)

[T-U-P]

How did you shoot a broomhandle carbine? There seems to be nearly no way of holding the handle and shooting it.

i remember watching a WWII weapon documentary show in Chine last summer, and according to that show, it works like a regular pistol, except a bit bigger. so you can shoot it like a pistol. it also has a attachable stack and once attached, it can act like a carbine (but you still hold it like a pistol). i don't know if there're two models or something, but the documentary showed 2 kinds, one full auto and another semi auto. the problem is that it ejects shell casings from the top, so the shooter can get hit by the empty shell casings. as a solution (don't know if it's same for the kuomintang armies as well because the documentary is mostly about weapons used by the communist army), the soldiers are trained to shoot it at an angle so the casings would eject to the side instead. also the documentary mentioned that when shooting full auto, the soldiers would hold it horizontally so its recoil is horizontal and can kill more enemies if they're close together (this techique usually does not involve an attached stock).

 

[darth sidious]

yes there are two verson one semi and the other fully auto

and yes beacause the user usuly shoots side ways the killl a max number of targets in small space buut he the solution was first discovered by bandits not the communist army

 

[adeptitus]

i said major resistence of the GMD army stopped after 1938. i didn't say they stopped fighting after 1938. after 1938, most of the cities in china were lost, and it came to the people's warfare. the people's
<snip>
...80% of chinese rifles are linked to masuers, not only M1888, there are lots of every kind of masuers. and during war, GMD forces were given US springfield rifle, forgot the name.

Here are some of the major engagements (100,000+) that the NRA (National Revolutionary Army) and the Chinese National Guard fought against Japan after 1938:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

(4 major engagements)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

etc.

As for rifles, the NRA was equipped with Hanyang 88 (Mauser 1888), Gewehr 98, and Karabiner 98k. The rifle that US supplied is probably the M1917, they had 2.4 million of them from WWI, of which 100,000 was sold to the Philippines and 1 million to the British.

Oh, and for those of you not in the know, the Flying Tigers were a group of Airforce Volunteers who, with their P40's fought in legendary fights against the Japanese on several diffrent fronts. The first front they fought on was the Sino-Japanese front. Despite the fact that the P40 is generaly considered to be at a disadvantage when fighting against Zeros due to the Zero's enhanced speed and agility, they still managed to do their part to help fight against the Japanese.

If you look at the kill-list here, you'd notice most of the Japanese fighters down were Nakajima Ki-27 Nate's:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

They also shot down some Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa and a Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu. But no Zero's.

As for the Zeros.
The Me109 had the same problems.
2MG+2 cannons with 60 shots per gun. (Yea, bettwe off without.)
Neither could do crab at high speeds.
<snip>
And PS, where was I glorifying Japan? Now stop this glorifying issue or you are out for Christmas. We are a professional and unbiased military forum. We do not state any slanted opinion that do not cover the majority but only facts.

On Mitsubishi Zero vs. Messerschmitt Bf 109, I'll just say that the Luffwaffe would've been better off with Zero's in Battle of Britian. The Bf 109E only had combat range of 650km, and the last Bf 109G-6 vairant had range of 700 km (425 miles). The Mitsubishi Zero had a range of 2,600 km.

IMO if we were to say "the Zero is the better machine for the job", that's not glorifying Japan.

 

[Red Guard]

ja, still, where are the 38 rifles? i'd like to know about that

 

[sumdud]

I've seen people (Communist guerillas?) in documentary also shooting their broomhandles sideways.
As for shooting sideways full auto, I don't find it attractive when the thing holds only 10 bullets.
But still, how'd you shoot the carbine? There is no place to fit your hand. You can't hold it like a pistol or like a rifle.

I thought it was the Zeros too, then again, might have messed it up with the Oscars..........(Which was nearly as good as Zeros without the fame.)
But Nates and Toryus? Those are just turkey shoot....... They are slow and light and crabby.

As for Zeros, it had the climb, manuverbility, and range. (How'd I forget that!)

 

[Red Guard]

I've seen people (Communist guerillas?) in documentary also shooting their broomhandles sideways.
As for shooting sideways full auto, I don't find it attractive when the thing holds only 10 bullets.
But still, how'd you shoot the carbine? There is no place to fit your hand. You can't hold it like a pistol or like a rifle.

I thought it was the Zeros too, then again, might have messed it up with the Oscars..........(Which was nearly as good as Zeros without the fame.)
But Nates and Toryus? Those are just turkey shoot....... They are slow and light and crabby.

As for Zeros, it had the climb, manuverbility, and range. (How'd I forget that!)

according to the german geared divisions. the carbine is issued to NCOs. that's the funniest part. since the hulster of the carbine IS the stock of the gun....

okay, last night i was just reading some funny threads on some forum, and i found that china did have some 38 rifles before the war. two ways. a japanese mechant sold some 38 rifles to china before the war, numbers NA. and about 1n 1938, some warlords in guangdong tried to betray the central government and the japanese supported japanese weapons, 38 rifles were in it. so i suppose you said if red army ever met some 38 rifles before the war, it must be the first case. but i strongly disgree on the 1911 revolutionary army used one.....

 

[adeptitus]

I thought it was the Zeros too, then again, might have messed it up with the Oscars..........(Which was nearly as good as Zeros without the fame.)
But Nates and Toryus? Those are just turkey shoot....... They are slow and light and crabby.
As for Zeros, it had the climb, manuverbility, and range. (How'd I forget that!)

The Flying Tigers only operated for a short time from Dec 1941 to July 1942. I think they mostly engaged Japanese Imperial Army aviation units, which used Nakajima aircraft. The Japanese Imperial Navy aviation used Mitsubishi aircraft (though Nakajima factory did manufacture 6,500 Zero's used by Naval aviation).

The Ki-27 Nate (Type 97 fighter) was the Imperial Army's primary fighter aircraft at the time. They built over 3,000 and dominated the skies over Mongolia and China in early stages of the war. In the Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939, the Ki-27 was reported to have shot down 1,252 Soviet I-15 and I-16's.

okay, last night i was just reading some funny threads on some forum, and i found that china did have some 38 rifles before the war. two ways. a japanese mechant sold some 38 rifles to china before the war, numbers NA. and about 1n 1938, some warlords in guangdong tried to betray the central government and the japanese supported japanese weapons, 38 rifles were in it. so i suppose you said if red army ever met some 38 rifles before the war, it must be the first case. but i strongly disgree on the 1911 revolutionary army used one.....

There were factories in China that made Type 38 rifles too. In 1931, when the Japanese invaded Manchuria, they setup a facotry and made about 110,000 Type 38 rifles and 51,000 Type 38 carbines. "Friendly" and collaborator forces were given Type 38 rifles, as well as militias organized under Japanese occupation. I read that "collaborator" riflemen were given a Type 38 rifle and 5 rounds of ammo in non-combat station, and no more than 30 rounds in combat station. The Japanese obviously did not trust them much.

 

[Kampfwagen]

I find the Zero more daunting.
Both the Me109 are underarmored and climbs fast. But while even the French had a more manuverable plane than the Me109s. (A hard plane to fly if you aren't an ace) But as for the Zero, there was about no plane that was more manuverable than it.
The P-40s were flew by the Americans as a part of RoCAF in the Flying Tigers.
They were victorious by cannibalizing parts and shot the Zeros from above.
There was practically no other way to shoot a zero from a P-40.

How did you shoot a broomhandle carbine? There seems to be nearly no way of holding the handle and shooting it.

To Kampfwagen, I edited out your pictures because they are too violent and will cause unwanted comments.

Thank you, I realized that myself only recently. I guess I was a little dazed by just how shocking they are. Despite what I know, I had only a slight grasp at just how horrible the Nanjiang massacre was! All at the request of other members, though! But why make the tank picture a Link?

And from what I understand, how one holds a Broomhandle Mauser is to ether use the butt as a stabilizer when shooting from a normal stance, or to grip the front of the magazine area. The first one is more likely as the second might just get your hand burnt if you do it the wrong way.

And Third (I gues I reversed the order) While a hard plane to fly, the BF109, especialy the G or 'Gustaf' model and E model were very capable planes that could just as easily tangle with a Huricane or Spitfighter, though outclassed by later itterations of the Spitfire and the P51D. The BF109 and the Zero side to side however are two very diffrent aircraft. The Zero was Faster and more Manuverable, but the BF109 had a better climb/descent and could take considerably more damage. Also, the Germans were constantly updating their BF109 fighters while the Japanese did relatively little, largely because of their political look on warfare based in part on the Bushido code (That it is not the weapon, but the man that wins wars.) Although good for person-to-person fights, I dont suspect the Samurai and Shogun ever expected to fly in machine-gun equipped fighters. By the way, if anything, while the BF109 is more well known, the Focke-Wulf 190 is in most respects a better aircraft.


Also, it is intresting to note that in both tanks and Airplanes, the Heer and Luftwaffe were both outclassed by the French ground and Airforces. But due to innefective (incompitent is too harsh a word) leadership and the German's superior tactics, the Nazis won the day. In fact many French fighters after the conquest of France were ether taken apart for study or re-painted in luftwaffe collors and flown against France's allies untill her liberation.

Also: The Hellcat and Corsair fighters (moreso the Hellcat) could outmanuver and outclimb a Zero, largely because the Zero's were obscelete at this point in the war. The P40's in China under the Flying Tigers together had a total of over two hundred kills and ninteen friendly losses.

And by the way, using Zero was just to generalize. I was aware there were very few Zeros up in the air at the time because during the early parts of the war, they werent even made and during the forties were too busy fighting in the Pacific.

And please: This is a thread about China's role in WW2, not BF-109 V.S Zero.

And no pictures, still looking for them! :coffee: looking over several diffrent sites to find some good ones.

 

[darth sidious]

okay, last night i was just reading some funny threads on some forum, and i found that china did have some 38 rifles before the war. two ways. a japanese mechant sold some 38 rifles to china before the war, numbers NA. and about 1n 1938, some warlords in guangdong tried to betray the central government and the japanese supported japanese weapons, 38 rifles were in it. so i suppose you said if red army ever met some 38 rifles before the war, it must be the first case. but i strongly disgree on the 1911 revolutionary army used one.....

the guandong rifle were part of the Japanese support for the war lords

the warlord of manchuria had large amount of japanese weapon in 1924 he bribed a japanese officer for a weapons storge weapons includee machine guns 38rifles and 150cannons

also the 38 rifle was firat made in 1905 so its possible that the Qing army had some as the factories in china were not making enough

LOL what is this the japanese got their ass kicked in air battle also there is not even that amny I-16 avilible at the time there were only 40 Oscars at the time if peral habour

the are the most pathetic aircraft of WWII no armour weak firepower adn slow

maybe you would like attacking a B-17 with the zero but no one else

the Bf109G-10 can take on a mustang with a degree of sucess the Zero(52) cant do sh*t aginst the hellcat let along the Mustang

the Zero is trueky pathetic above 5000 meters the gustaf in infinately superior to it and to some degree the FW-190

the Zero CANT be fitted with a high power engine beacause the structure is so weak there for its doomed to fail as it cant be upgraded

the full auto verson of the brommhandle has a 30 round clip not just 10 bullets

 

[sumdud]

I know the Japanese were operating Nates in Northern parts of China, but I doubt neither it nor P40s can reach each other.
And I couldn't figure where the Japanese would be operating their Nates from to fight with P40s. (Burma?) And the Nates suck..........

The Zeros weren't fast compared to Me-109. But it had at first a better climb rate (Kept decreasing until Me-109 took the lead). But being a gas inflated fugu that led to its fast doom, it always had a better range.
France could've repelled the Nazis?!

Never saw broomhandles with 30-zines.
Didn't Guerillas capture a number of Zeros?
As for the tank, sorry about that. Think it was a red x for me, so I deleted it.
(Uh.......the tank........ it's a forbidden site.)