Taiwanese president declares Taiwan must seek independence

Of course this is nothing new for Chen, it's the stance that got him elected in 2000 - as FuManChu noted, it's appealing to his selectorate, and China (predictably) overreacted realistically, though politically they had to condemn him. Calling him a "criminal in history" is rich, though. After he got elected his policies quickly turned moderate and pragmatic towards keeping China happy, it's obvious that short of brain freeze he will continue to do so.

Schumacher said:

They might talk more if KMT wins the next election.

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And if the KMT doesn't win? Another four years of bad Sino-Taiwanese relations because Beijing still wants to sulk in the corner? That's not good for peace. If the Americans can bite down on their pride the Chinese government can too.

FuManChu said:

And if the KMT doesn't win? Another four years of bad Sino-Taiwanese relations because Beijing still wants to sulk in the corner? That's not good for peace. If the Americans can bite down on their pride the Chinese government can too.

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I agree Fu...Chen was simply appealing to the electorate and his constituency in the same way he did to get elected...nothing more or less. He did the same thing in the elections and was elected and then promptly took on the more moderate stance. I believe he is doing the same now in advance of the next elections.

Beijing sulks in the corner or Chen being a moron?

For someone who proclaims an open mind and neutrality, you certainly are not very open and not very neutral. If you want to play the devil's advocate, fine, but at least play it for both sides. If you don't, then stop spilling that neutrality horse shit.

eecsmaster said:

For someone who proclaims an open mind and neutrality, you certainly are not very open and not very neutral. If you want to play the devil's advocate, fine, but at least play it for both sides. If you don't, then stop spilling that neutrality horse shit.

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Well, I do not know who you are addressing that rant to...and maybe I have misinterpreted it (if so, apologies in advance)...but for me, it is simply my opinion and was never meant to be neutral per sey.

Chen is being a politicians and taking risks as he appeals to his constituency. Nothing new or neutral about that. Others will react as they will...nothing neutral about that either. He is hedging his bets that his words will get him his votes while not causing too extreme a reaction form the other side.

Having said all of that, I am not really neutral on this issue in any case. I believe that the ROC, for all intents and purposes has been independent for a long time...but they have a neighbor who is much stronger than they who insists otherwise, and who, quite frankly, is playing the issue smartly as more and more Taiwan economy becomes more and more dependent on the mainland.

Having visited both countries...I pray for the benefit of the people themselves that it can ultimatley be resolved peacefully to the satisfaction of the people themselves and their own prosperity and freedom...because I believe the latter truly begats an optimum of the former.

who else? The notorious Dr. Fu of course.

eecsmaster said:

Beijing sulks in the corner or Chen being a moron?

For someone who proclaims an open mind and neutrality, you certainly are not very open and not very neutral. If you want to play the devil's advocate, fine, but at least play it for both sides. If you don't, then stop spilling that neutrality horse shit.

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The most common attitude on this forum on this subject is "waaah, waaah, waaah Chen this, waaah, waaah, waaah, Taiwan that". So it is actually necessary for me to put the other side across if there is to be any sense of neutrality at all. If some people could actually think about both sides rather than just their own, I wouldn't need to make comments like that.

Your very question as to whether Chen is being a "moron" shows you are far from being neutral yourself. Clever people sometimes sulk, but "moron" is a completely negative term. If you're going to scold me for not being balanced enough, at least try to create the illusion you're non-partisan.

Chen does get a little rowdy sometimes, but given the state of limbo his home is in, the pressures put on Taiwan by China & the US, the demolition of its international ties by China, the Opposition repeatedly vetoing any laws he tries to create because they're throwing a temper-tantrum about something (even if they actually agree with the law), etc, I would say he generally acts with restraint. I think most people with even a little national pride and self-worth would be driven mad after nearly two terms in office of that.

China complains whenever Chen does something it doesn't like, but it is completely oblivious to all the things Chen could have done and many would say would have been completely justified to do. He has walked a tight-rope to please Beijing and Washington - just because he stops from time-to-time to waive to the crowd doesn't mean he's a "moron", "jerk" or "the worst criminal in history".

More importantly if Chen is the problem, why is it that China refuses to talk to anyone from the Taiwanese government or ruling party? Don't tell me they're all as "bad" as the President. The DPP has even pledged to drop its independence commitment if China would talk without caveats as to what people must do and say beforehand. If that's not a sign of diplomatic sulking (or another form of negative behaviour), I'm not sure what is.

who else? The notorious Dr. Fu of course.

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Yeah, notorious because he isn't afraid to stick it to someone who's talking absolute trash. Well sorry for rocking the boat, but you could write your posts with just a little more common-sense and empathy for anyone other than yourself.

so your rational is because A-Bien's voter base is eroding, he has the right to nudge the Strait closer to war? Make no mistake, there WILL be war, and the instigator will not be the PRC, who has made its stance VERY clear.

Selfish or moronic, Chen is cast in a pretty negative light.

eecsmaster said:

so your rational is because A-Bien's voter base is eroding, he has the right to nudge the Strait closer to war? Make no mistake, there WILL be war, and the instigator will not be the PRC, who has made its stance VERY clear.

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What the hell? Chen has just reiterated what he has often said, and it's a step towards war? So what the blue-blazes has China been doing? It has a constant build-up of missiles and other military assets pointedly directed at Taiwan, brought in the Anti-Secession Act, is trying to cut Taiwan off from the world diplomatically, economically and militarily and generally does everything it can to stop Taiwan being anything but 100% reliant on the mainland.

If I apply the logic displayed in your last post, China has already initiated hostilities by its aforementioned actions. That Chen has not responded with a UDI shows his restraint in comparison.

Personally I do not think anything will come out of this. China should be far too clever to overreact by starting military operations, and Chen isn't going to throw away the hard work he has put in since 2000 to increase Taiwan's identity, just to make a UDI. Indeed Taiwan knows its survival is based on US support, which would evaporate if it went too far. Thus there won't be a war anytime soon. If there is one, it is more likely to be because China becomes overly confident of its chances of success and/or reacts irrationally to events in Taiwan.

China is not innocent in this context. After all, it takes two to tango. However, PRC's actions have been very consistant with their announced political objective, not so for Chen.

Chen pledged to stay away from inciting unnecessary tension in the straits. Specifically, if my memory is correct, he said he would uphold the "Three No's". So it is he who has deviated from a politically stable course.