Taiwan Military News Thread

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adeptitus

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all i knew is that taiwan test a cruise missle able to hit beijing, is that true?

According to various news sources, the extended range needed to hit Beijing is possible if US agreed to export advanced LACM turbofan engines, which is unknown at this time. Here's some news from 2005 on the HF-2E:

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Taiwan to Deploy LACM
- September 6, 2005
Despite earlier news reports that the HF-2E land attack cruise missile (LACM) has secretly entered operational service, military officials concede that there are only 3 HF-2E missiles on hand. Sources say that the military plans to begin producing 24 mobile LACM launcher systems in 9/2005. These will include 48 HF-2E missiles in box launchers mounted on transporter/erector/launcher vehicles similar to the TK series SAM systems, together with control and power supply equipment. MND hopes to complete production of these 24 systems within two years and to deploy the systems in three missile batteries under the control of the Missile Command. MND plans to spend US$509 million (NT$16.3 billion) to produce the LACM systems needed to equip the three batteries. CSIST has already internally re-allocated budgets from other programs to fund the production of 24 launch systems. Another US$93.7 million (NT$3 billion) will be budgeted to produce the HF-2E missiles. HF-2E passed four tactical trials at JPMR this year. CSIST and Missile Command personnel jointly conducted the operational testing and are preparing doctrinal and technical documentation, so as to speed service entry. When deployed on Taiwan, the 600km-ranged HF-2E could cover over 20 targets along China's southeast coast that represent the greatest threat, including air, naval, and missile bases. If forward deployed on Tungying Island or the Pescadores, Shanghai and Hong Kong would be within range. Deployment on Taiwan will primarily be in mountainous areas east of National Highway No. 3. To upgrade HF-2E performance, CSIST R&D team is working on compressing the size of internal missile components, to free up more volume for increased fuel and extend missile range to over 700km. Moreover, if the U.S. should agree to export turbofan engine technology for cruise missiles, CSIST would right away be able to produce an LACM with range of 1,000km. According to China Times, the HF-2E has been formally given the program name Hsun Juen ("Quick Falcon"), with nearly US$156 million (NT$5 billion) investment under the FY2006 classified defense budget to continue performance upgrade. Future land-attack cruise missile(s) will also be called Quick Falcon, to avoid confusion with the HF series anti-ship missiles. (Apple Daily, 8/29/2005; China Times, 9/1/2005)

You can see a photo of HF-2 missile here, along with some updated specs on the missile. Though I'm not sure if the photo is HF-2 or HF-2E:
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CHINA EYES TAIWANESE CRUISE DEFENSIVE MISSILE DEVELOPMENTS WITH CONCERN
November 2006 Issue


Over the course of the past several months, missile developments in Taiwan have become a topic of growing interest in both the Chinese and Taiwanese media. Discussion has centered primarily on two systems, the Hsiung Feng (Brave Wind) -2E (HF-2E) cruise missile and the Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile (ATBM). These systems appear to give Taiwan expanded options for deterring attacks from mainland China, although questions remain about the capabilities of both systems.

The HF-2E is reported by the Chinese and Taiwanese press to be a land-attack cruise missile (LACM) with a range of more than 1,000 kilometers, although the Taiwan Ministry of National Defense insists that it is an anti-ship system, which would limit its land-attack capabilities to coastal targets. [1] While it shares a name with the HF-2 anti-ship cruise missile, which is already in service, Mainland reports claim that it has little relationship to the anti-ship system in terms of its capabilities and likely mission. [2]

The HF-2E is 6.25 meters long, 50 centimeters in diameter, weighs approximately 1,600 kilograms, and flies at roughly 800 kilometers per hour. [3] It is reported to carry a 400-450 kilogram payload. [4] The missile was reported to have been fired 500 kilometers into the Pacific Ocean, where it hit its intended target. [5] However, the test, in itself, does not indicate whether the system has the ability to attack land-based targets beyond those at the water’s edge.

Notwithstanding official Taiwanese declarations that the system has no land-attack capabilities, Chinese reports claim that the HF-2E system is capable of striking political and military targets throughout southeast China and that it therefore poses a serious threat to the stability of relations across the Taiwan Strait. [7] Moreover, according to Chinese sources, Taiwan hopes to extend the range of the HF-2E missile to 2,000 kilometers. [8] This would enable the system to strike Beijing and the Three Gorges Dam. [9] However, reports in the Chinese press also note that the HF-2E’s existing engine limits its range and that until Taiwan obtains better engine technology, the HF-2E will not actually be able to hit the Chinese capital. [10]

In addition, Chinese press reports have stated that Taiwan lacks both mapping data for more distant Chinese targets and a guidance system that is capable of hitting such targets while avoiding topographical obstacles en route. [12] The reports suggest that even Chinese analysts are uncertain whether the HF-2E could preemptively attack Chinese missile installations that are inland from the Chinese coast.

Although the United States possesses the technology that Taiwan needs in these areas, Chinese reports indicate that Washington has thus far refused to provide it to Taiwan. [13] U.S. transfers of such technology would be inconsistent with U.S. participation in the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), which restricts assistance for missile programs seeking to develop systems that can carry a 500 kilogram payload to a distance of 300 kilometers or more, or equivalent systems (in which range has been reduced to increase payload or vice versa). Both the existing HF-2E and a possible extended range version of the missile would exceed this threshold. Indeed, reports in the Taiwanese press suggest that the United States is working to discourage Taiwan from developing long-range land-attack cruise missiles. [14]

In early September 2006, the Taiwanese Ministry of National Defense (MND) declared that, “Our military build-up plan is based on the strategic notion of deterrence, and self-defense, with safeguarding peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait as our ultimate goal.” [15] The MND went on to state that reports that the HF-2E is capable of targeting Beijing and other political and military targets are “misleading and totally wrong.” [16] As noted, the MND insists that the HF-2E is not an LACM, but rather a medium-range anti-ship cruise missile. [17]

A second system that is receiving extensive coverage in the Chinese and Taiwanese press is Taiwan’s ATBM system. This system has yet to receive an official name, but has been code-named the “Layered System Plan,” (tseng-his chi-hua). [18] It has also been dubbed by Chinese and Taiwanese sources as Taiwan’s “Patriot” system, referring to the well-known U.S. anti-tactical missile system. [19] Reporting from China and Taiwan indicates that from 2001-2007 the island’s government allocated more than NT $ 18.365 billion (U.S. $ 553.2 million) for the research and development of the system. [20] This missile will be Taiwan’s first domestically developed and produced ATBM and is intended to intercept and destroy China’s
M series ballistic missiles, specifically the 600-kilometer range M-9 and 300-kilometer range M-11 systems that have been deployed in substantial numbers over the past several years across the Taiwan Strait. [21] Chinese reporting also indicates that the ATBM will be able to defend against cruise missile attacks. [22] The ATBM is armed with a traditional warhead using a pre-fragmentation design, intended to explode near the incoming missile to destroy either the missile as a whole or, at least, its ability to successfully hit the intended target. [23] Chinese reporting indicates that future Taiwanese missile defenses will rely on the U.S. Patriot systems for one third of the defense mission and on the new ATBM for two thirds of that mission. [24]

There is little discussion currently in the Chinese media about sales to Taiwan of the U.S. Patriot Advanced Concept-3 (PAC-3), the most advanced U.S. anti-tactical ballistic missile system. Washington originally offered this system to Taiwan several years ago, but partisan politics in Taipei has prevented passage of the required legislation to fund the purchase. However, according to Taiwanese media reports, it appears that Taiwan will likely pass legislation in the coming year for the purchase of the PAC-3 system. [25] In total, the island’s budget calls for the purchase of 6 PAC-3 batteries. [26] (Taiwan has previously acquired the less capable PAC-2 system.)

Taiwan’s continued push to develop the indigenous HF-2E and the ATBM implies a commitment to acquiring some counter to the missile threat from China, however problematic such efforts might prove against China’s growing missile holdings. Depending on its overland capabilities, the HF-2E could allow Taiwan to disrupt PRC missile launches preemptively, assuming that such strikes occurred before China deploys its mobile missile batteries to uncertain hidden locations. It is highly doubtful that Taiwan, on its own, could identify and attack Chinese mobile missile launchers, once they had departed their peacetime facilities. That Taiwanese military analysts have discussed the possibility of instituting a “preventive self-defense” strike option, involving early use of cruise missiles to create confusion in China’s strike plans, may explain Washington’s reported consternation about Taiwan's HF-2E program. [27] The ATBM, on the other hand, could protect key Taiwanese military sites, such as airfields, against those missiles that the Chinese succeeded in launching. [28] As Chinese military modernization continues, including Beijing’s deployment of growing numbers of M-9 and M-11 ballistic missiles and Dong Hai-10 and Ying Ji-63 LACMs across the Taiwan Strait, Taiwan’s motivation to pursue its own countervailing missile capabilities is likely to remain strong. In the meantime, all that appears certain is that missile developments on both sides of the Taiwan Strait could be headed in an increasingly unstable direction.


Erik Quam, Jing-Dong Yuan - Monterey Institute Center for Nonproliferation Studies
 
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Violet Oboe

Junior Member
´Preventive self-defense´,
exactly the kind of amateurish strategy paving the way right into disaster. :(

Without doubt ROCA's missile bases will be first priority targets for Second Artillery and PLAAF. Assuming they could go out with their launchers during a crisis and could prepare unhindered their ´preventive strike´ is simply uninmaginably naive.
Indeed the DoD and State have really reason to be concerned...! (...just quoting Jing-Dong Yuan)
 
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Clouded Leopard

Junior Member
´Preventive self-defense´,
exactly the kind of amateurish strategy paving the way right into disaster. :(

Best defense is a good offense. What are you suggesting Oboe; that Taiwan should have only defensive weapons (which may be 6 x costlier than offensive strike?)


Without doubt ROCA's missile bases will be first priority targets for Second Artillery and PLAAF. Assuming they could go out with their launchers during a crisis and could prepare unhindered their ´preventive strike´ is simply uninmaginably naive. [/B]


Yes, Taiwan's cruise missiles could indeed be taken out by the PLA, but again, what's your alternative? That Taiwan not have these cruise missiles?
 

Violet Oboe

Junior Member
The main shortcoming of this ´proactive´strategy is that this plan would fail dismally on the tactical level. :(

Just assume you get 500 HF-2E (may be never, may be in 2012-14) and ROCA would be able to launch 400 missiles successfully and around 300 would hit their intended targets within an operationally effective time.

So what impact would this 300 hits have on the efficiency of the PLA warmachine? Probably most LACM's would hit preprogrammed targets consequently doing some damage to PLA infrastructure (barracks, communications, harbours) and may be taking out some static SAM and SRBM bases.

Even without considering that PLA would in war mobilize the enourmous resources of China's construction industry (you know that are the people bringing up whole city blocks in weeks!) for reparing critical damage, the results of this HF-2E ´blitz´would be mere pinpricks!
Additionally the more or less inevitable civilian casualties (do not tell me HF-2E is better than Tomahawk!) would be a heavy political burden for Taipeh since Beijing would use these incidents for further isolating Taiwan on the world stage.

So to sum up, ´preventive self defense´ with cruise missiles is a bad idea on the strategic, tactical and political level and Taiwan should desist from this kind of strategy. :coffee:
 

Clouded Leopard

Junior Member
So to sum up, ´preventive self defense´ with cruise missiles is a bad idea on the strategic, tactical and political level and Taiwan should desist from this kind of strategy. :coffee:

Again, what do you propose as an alternative; "pure defense only" for Taiwan?

(you know that are the people bringing up whole city blocks in weeks!) for reparing critical damage, the results of this HF-2E ´blitz´would be mere pinpricks![/B]

If equipped with EMP warheads, Taiwanese cruise missiles could conceivably paralyze large sections of infrastructure. Also, cruise missiles are a psychological booster for Taiwan, even if they do relatively little damage ("Hey, at least we're hitting back somehow" does wonders for morale.)

Just assume you get 500 HF-2E (may be never, may be in 2012-14) and ROCA would be able to launch 400 missiles successfully and around 300 would hit their intended targets within an operationally effective time.

300 hits as opposed to having zero hits, if Taiwan didn't have these missiles?

Additionally the more or less inevitable civilian casualties would be a heavy political burden for Taipei since Beijing would use these incidents for further isolating Taiwan on the world stage.

How good does Beijing look on the world stage when Beijing fires its 900+ ballistic missiles at Taiwan? Better than Taiwan, when Taiwan fires its 500 cruise missiles at China?
 

Unit88

Banned Idiot
first of all, China would most likely NOT attack taiwan. China had never invaded a neighboring "state??" let alone a nation e.g Japan, Korea, Mongolia..etc. It is only natural for China to rearm itself because the relationship between Taiwan and United States has become almost strictly military reasons.
 

Violet Oboe

Junior Member
@Clouded Leopard: what's up with EMP warheads for Taiwan?
Although there are some rumours around that Taiwan is interested in non-nuclear EMP technology there is no shred of evidence that ROCA has any EMP warheads (let alone for HF-2E) deployed or acquired.
Non-nuclear EMP is a highly challenging technology shrouded in secrecy by every major power developing this kind of weapon (USA, Russia, China). Obviously China has been engaged in non/sub-nuclear EMP research since the 80's and according to some US sources has made steady progress. Nevertheless rumours that PLA has already deployed non-nuclear EMP warheads for SRBM's and LACM's have not been confirmed so far. Probably China is far more advanced in EMP weapons technology than Taiwan and I would be very surpised indeed if Beijing would not be in the know about any EMP ´development throughbreaks´ on Taiwan.:D

Realistically ROCA has only one viable warhead option for a cruise missile like HF-2E: a nuclear device.

Last chance!
 
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adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Just assume you get 500 HF-2E (may be never, may be in 2012-14) and ROCA would be able to launch 400 missiles successfully and around 300 would hit their intended targets within an operationally effective time.

So what impact would this 300 hits have on the efficiency of the PLA warmachine? Probably most LACM's would hit preprogrammed targets consequently doing some damage to PLA infrastructure (barracks, communications, harbours) and may be taking out some static SAM and SRBM bases.

Let me put on the devil's advocate hat here,

Say if relations between PRC and ROC turned worse and the PLA/PLAN starts a major build up. There would be many large transports and materials at the docks. These would be a priority for me to hit: large transports, shipyard facilities.

After that, I'd aim for infrastructure targets that cannot be quickly repaired, such as bridges, power plants, dams, water treatment plants, communication centers, aircraft (on ground), etc. I'd expect the PLA to use their SRBM's to target similar facilities in TW as well.

The PRC has huge amount of resources that could be used to easily and quickly repair roads, airports, etc. But you cannot build/rebuild another power plant or major bridge in 1 week. Same with large transport ships. IMO the Japanese in late stage of WW2 made the mistake of attacking heavily defended US warship fleets, instead of the troop & cargo transports. Had they hit the transports, it'd had delayed US invasion of various islands and bought Japan more time. In a TW invasion scenario, it'd be critical for TW to cause as much delays as possible to the PLA and hope (pray?) for US/Japan/AUS intervention. Sinking ships in a habor and making it harder for PLAN to deploy its assets would be a major priority.

The PRC has invested heavily in its missile defense force, so TW will have to deploy LACM's by the hundreds and hope some would get through. These HF-2E missiles aren't the most technologically advanced and doesn't appear to have any stealth characteristics, so they'd have to depend on numbers and speed / short distance to punch through PLA's defense screen.


first of all, China would most likely NOT attack taiwan. China had never invaded a neighboring "state??" let alone a nation e.g Japan, Korea, Mongolia..etc. It is only natural for China to rearm itself because the relationship between Taiwan and United States has become almost strictly military reasons.

If by China you mean the PRC, I'd argue that the PRC government has been willing (in the past) to send punitive expeditions across the border to make a point to its neighbors, though not on the same global scale as the US does.

See: Sino-Indian War, Sino-Vietnam War.
 
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