Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Of course, unforeseen revolutions in technology might change each side's available options, but they're called unforeseen for a reason.
Technological advances in this scenario inherently favour China since it currently lags technologically. If some technology X gets adopted by both China and the US (and it would be since China is behind in legacy technologies, not novel ones), no matter the absolute gain to the US, the balance will shift in China's favour since it would always gain relatively (i.e., its absolute gain would always be greater).

And the impact of foreseeable technologies lowers China's threshold for conflict, since a combination of renewables + advanced nuclear power + electric transportation will mitigate and ultimately obviate China's need for oil, severely diminishing the impact of a far seas blockade.
Everyone is aware of the priorities each side sees in Taiwan, but the degree of sacrifice that each side is willing to lay down for Taiwan is still a question.
The degree of sacrifice the US is willing to make for Taiwan is not a question. In fact, since your scenario begins with Taiwan declaring de jure independence, that's the out from this hopeless situation the US has dreamed of. It can claim that it has no obligation to protect Taiwan since it unilaterally changed the status quo and get out with some dignity.
Such a possibility of course will sought to be mitigated by China seeking to build up a powerful navy and air force to be able to project power as well and either seek to protect its own shipping and in turn test US resolve in those areas of blockade, as well as to further integrate itself with the world economy so that if a blockade on China does occur those other trading partners will vocally advocate for continued freedom of navigation of trade and commerce and energy and isolate the US and its partners, and of course eurasian economic and energy integration to complicate the US ability to dominate sea lanes.
As my electrification example showed, as time goes forward both China's naval strength increases and the degree to which blockades can harm it decreases. Broadening the conflict also carries grave risks for the US, since it would no longer just be about Taiwan but could expand to China's conquest of Japan and the SCS littoral states, even to taking US territories like Guam and Hawaii.
My guess is that the US would have to call China's bluff on that one
Guess again.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
My guess is that the US would have to call China's bluff on that one, otherwise any nuclear power would have the ability to force Washington to back down over any other future dispute just by threatening nuclear war. For a start it would encourage North Korea to make unreasonable demands off the ROK, such as crippling financial transfers to benefit the Kim regime.

I appreciate that there are special issues at play with Taiwan, but once it worked everyone else would want the same treatment. It could even lead to more nuclear proliferation around the world.

There's also the really unfortunate possibility that Washington would conclude that Xi had gone completely bat-shit crazy and that a nuclear first strike was required because at some point he was going to press the button anyway.

I agree an extent, but that's also why you have established nuclear powers to begin with -- i.e.: that nuclear powers recognize and respect each others red lines and that they respect there are certain legitimate things that they can have the right to put the nuclear option on the table for.


The nuclear factor in a Taiwan contingency is essentially to raise the stakes to the US that the nuclear option very much would be on the table in some forms if the US chose to intervene, to introduce that level of strategic and potentially world ending doubt -- not necessarily a threat that the button would immediately be pushed the moment the US intervened.

Essentially it would be challenging the US to the extent to which they are committed to Taiwan, while also seeking to establish China's degree of resolve as well.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Essentially it would be challenging the US to the extent to which they are committed to Taiwan, while also seeking to establish China's degree of resolve as well.

To be fair, I think China using the possibility of nuclear escalation could be advantageous to its position, but in more limited circumstances. I was thinking of:

1. Warning that US attacks on Chinese mainland military facilities could provoke the use of nuclear weapons, such a directed at US bases in the Pacific like Wake Island that currently China cannot reliably take out with conventional weapons.

2. A US president that was clearly weak and looking for a way to not get involved. The spectre of nuclear war might give him/her the cover to sit the war out.

Whereas I don't think it would work on a Cold War veteran like Biden.
 

daifo

Captain
Registered Member
My guess is that the US would have to call China's bluff on that one, otherwise any nuclear power would have the ability to force Washington to back down over any other future dispute just by threatening nuclear war. For a start it would encourage North Korea to make unreasonable demands off the ROK, such as crippling financial transfers to benefit the Kim regime.

The US has backed down from any direct fights with Russia/Soviet Union. In some degree, Trumped backed down from attacking N Korea and was not able to do anything significant against Iran.

I appreciate that there are special issues at play with Taiwan, but once it worked everyone else would want the same treatment. It could even lead to more nuclear proliferation around the world.

It already is a fact.

There's also the really unfortunate possibility that Washington would conclude that Xi had gone completely bat-shit crazy and that a nuclear first strike was required because at some point he was going to press the button anyway.

Not getting involved with Taiwan would prevent the problem. Besides, pressing the button would end the US too.
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't think an American thermonuclear first strike on China in a Taiwan war scenario would see a China return strike only limited to continental USA and American bases in the region. That'd be a free for all brawl and anything and everything within reach will be blasted; Tokyo, Taipei, London, Berlin, Singapore, Melbourne, Delhi, you name it. There are no fixed rules for a nuclear war, because it has not been fought yet and nobody has held a convention on that.
 

daifo

Captain
Registered Member
I don't think an American thermonuclear first strike on China in a Taiwan war scenario would see a China return strike only limited to continental USA and American bases in the region. That'd be a free for all brawl and anything and everything within reach will be blasted; Tokyo, Taipei, London, Berlin, Singapore, Melbourne, Delhi, you name it. There are no fixed rules for a nuclear war, because it has not been fought yet and nobody has held a convention on that.

That would be the correct choice as if there is a chance for humans to recover, you would want everyone or at least the major powers to be equally affected
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
I agree an extent, but that's also why you have established nuclear powers to begin with -- i.e.: that nuclear powers recognize and respect each others red lines and that they respect there are certain legitimate things that they can have the right to put the nuclear option on the table for.


The nuclear factor in a Taiwan contingency is essentially to raise the stakes to the US that the nuclear option very much would be on the table in some forms if the US chose to intervene, to introduce that level of strategic and potentially world ending doubt -- not necessarily a threat that the button would immediately be pushed the moment the US intervened.

Essentially it would be challenging the US to the extent to which they are committed to Taiwan, while also seeking to establish China's degree of resolve as well.


I think Mao had the right idea about Nukes when comes to war. They are paper tigers. Completely useless. Nukes are only good for one thing, to deter others from annihilating you. They are essentially suicide bomb attack on your enemy.

They can raise the cost perception of starting wars between major powers. But they are not really good for actual war.

War is about gaining land and destroying enemies at minimum cost to yourself. What good is a war if you destroy yourself in the process?

In fact I would argue that even in the face of total defeat a country will not use nuclear weapons. Why? Because using nukes means not just defeat, but complete annihilation when the enemy also attacks you. Sure you take out the enemy too, but what's the point of taking out the enemy if you die as well. Is the cost of defeat higher than complete annihilation? I would say, No.

A rational human being and a country that is composed of rational human beings will never choose to do a suicide attack compared to surrender. Because surrender gives you a hope that the enemy will be merciful and might spare you to live another day.

When a soldier sees a gun pointed at them, they don't choose to commit suicide to take out the enemy with them, they choose to surrender with the hope of surviving the next day.

So, there is no nuclear option for China or any other country when it comes to preventing others from attacking you. You can use nuclear weapons as tactical nukes to gain advantage during war, but they cannot prevent war altogether from a determined enemy. If US decides to invade China, would China start nuking US cities? Of course not. Why commit suicide when you can defeat a US invasion with an army anyway?

Even if China was losing to US and getting completely taken over by US, why would they commit suicide by attacking US cities when they can surrender and become like Germany or Japan. Sure, its humiliating but its better than complete death.

Same thing goes for US if there is ever is a scenario where it is facing complete defeat by China in a war. There is no way US will commit suicide just cause they are losing to China.

There is no alternative to conventional military power. They will always be useful to win wars and gaining a political outcome.

What prevents war in the modern day and age is not nukes but economics. In the past, nations gained power and resources by gaining more land, since all money was gained from agriculture. But in the modern era, trade and technology has changed the dynamic of how nations become rich. Now you can buy resources with money. How powerful and rich you are is determined by your industry, education level, technology and so on. There is no extra advantage at gaining more land.


US can say all they want how they will give up everything to save Taiwan. But if China becomes 3 times bigger than US in GDP which is very likely by 2050, and also starts to field military budgets 2 times that of US, also very likely by 2050-60, then what good is saving Taiwan? US will be completely outgunned and overwhelmed by Chinese military power that will threatening them all across the globe. The raw numbers of Chinese planes and ships will make any kind of defense useless near Chinese coast. US will have to think how it can save Latin America from Chinese dominance, let alone Taiwan.

China will gain Taiwan without a fight once they get as rich as Japan which will likely happen by 2050. US will by then give up on Taiwan just cause they will forced to focus on detering China in their own shores.
 
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zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
That would be the correct choice as if there is a chance for humans to recover, you would want everyone or at least the major powers to be equally affected

That's right. It all comes down to the fact there's only one planet that we share.
If Americans and her allies think they can glassify the entire China civilization, then think again, very carefully.

That's not even counting the bio and chemical weapons operating under a dead hand arrangement.
Good luck making the vaccines in a nuclear winter.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
My guess is that the US would have to call China's bluff on that one, otherwise any nuclear power would have the ability to force Washington to back down over any other future dispute just by threatening nuclear war. For a start it would encourage North Korea to make unreasonable demands off the ROK, such as crippling financial transfers to benefit the Kim regime.
Any nuclear country including North Korea can oppose the US without being attacked while that is not true for countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc... That is the current truth. They wouldn't have a chance to call China's bluff because as China wins the conventional conflict, it would be up to the US to decide if they want to escalate to nuclear and MAD.
I appreciate that there are special issues at play with Taiwan, but once it worked everyone else would want the same treatment. It could even lead to more nuclear proliferation around the world.
Just saying you appreciate the special issues doesn't mean you do. You clearly do not as that is the same as attacking China directly. If China doesn't respond with nukes, then China is the one who has shown that its red lines are not serious and its nukes are no better than empty cans. For Chinese people, losing Taiwan would be a shame worse than death so all the chips are on the table; there's nothing left to reserve nukes for if they are not for this. Nuclear proliferation is not easy and those who oppose the US generally already seek it if they have the technology. They know that being nuclear can defend themselves but getting there is very difficult.
There's also the really unfortunate possibility that Washington would conclude that Xi had gone completely bat-shit crazy and that a nuclear first strike was required because at some point he was going to press the button anyway.
Makes no sense, do not understand if there is any point.

To be fair, I think China using the possibility of nuclear escalation could be advantageous to its position, but in more limited circumstances. I was thinking of:

1. Warning that US attacks on Chinese mainland military facilities could provoke the use of nuclear weapons, such a directed at US bases in the Pacific like Wake Island that currently China cannot reliably take out with conventional weapons.

2. A US president that was clearly weak and looking for a way to not get involved. The spectre of nuclear war might give him/her the cover to sit the war out.

Whereas I don't think it would work on a Cold War veteran like Biden.
China has already said it will trade every city in a nuclear conflict with the US over Taiwan. Strong or weak, no president wants to be the last US president. There is no such thing as a veteran of the Cold War because it wasn't a war. And the fact that it was Cold shows you that the US and Russia backed off from each other's red lines to avoid nuclear conflict. That is the opposite of your conclusion.
 
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PUFF_DRAGON

New Member
Registered Member
The simple fact of the matter is that China's current arsenal probably isn't enough to endure an American nuclear first strike and still retain enough warheads to reduce the North American continent to Medieval conditions. Balance of Nuclear power is basically maintained by Russia and the PRC basically freeloads off of the Russian nuclear arsenal. Since if the US counter force strikes China then it's most likely Moscow will have concluded the US has gone completely insane and launch counter force against the US too.

Even for "minimum viable deterrent" uses the current PRC nuclear arsenal is not sufficient IMO.

A sprint to nuclear parity before Putin leaves office/dies of old age, consulting with Moscow before hand of course, is probably the PRC's ideal move.
 
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