Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

PUFF_DRAGON

New Member
Registered Member
Submarines aren't meant for a death match in a enclosed pond against their opponents. They aren't SSNs, numbers have different implications here.
Relevance here is, this number of submarines is sufficient to accept some losses. 8 submarines on a single theater isn't a low number.

Eight submarines in the Taiwan straits is basically nothing compared to the sheer number of ASW planes, helos, corvettes, and submarines the PLA can field in the local area.

Well, here I see a difference. You see this distance as proximity for ships. I see it as a significant hindrance. For example, it's borderline for most hovercraft; helicopters won't find it convenient either.
Yes, it's possible to have effective invasion from given distance; it's, however, at the outer edge of what's feasible for invasion with tactical means.

That's completely incorrect. The current PLA stock of amphibious tanks have enough fuel to go 500 klicks and can move ~20 km/hr in the water. They could literally drive the entire PLA Amphibious Army Group from a beach in the mainland to a beach and Taiwan and still have >2/3 fuel.

Modern PLA helos like the Z-20 also have combat radii in the range of 300-500 km so again the distance is not really an issue. Hovercraft can also make multiple round trips from the mainland to Taipei.

It is completely incorrect to suggest that the distance from the mainland to Taipei is beyond what is tactically capable for the PLA Marines and PLA Amphibious Army.

China will have to perform a large-scale land warfare, at significant, highly vulnerable logistical leg, w/o permanent harbour, and with highly limited cross-strait fires.

This isn't World War II. Most modern Roll-on Roll-off ships can ship the logistics for an entire battalion with zero need for an intact harbor infrastructure or engineering equipment as long as the harbor hasn't literally been excavated into a crater by a nuke and the PRC has hundreds of these vessels.
 

FangYuan

Junior Member
Registered Member
China may use decapitation tactics to neutralize Taiwan's command system and air bases. During the first 30 minutes of the war, about 50-100 DF-17s will be used to destroy government buildings, airports, key transport routes and power plants.

Taiwan fell into chaos. Next, China will use multiple UAVs to destroy low and mid-range air defense systems near the beach, paving the way for Xian H 6 aircraft to drop MOABs on the beach, destroying minefields and bunkers. In the end, the rest of the work was assigned to the Marines.
 

PUFF_DRAGON

New Member
Registered Member
China may use decapitation tactics to neutralize Taiwan's command system and air bases. During the first 30 minutes of the war, about 50-100 DF-17s will be used to destroy government buildings, airports, key transport routes and power plants.

Taiwan fell into chaos. Next, China will use multiple UAVs to destroy low and mid-range air defense systems near the beach, paving the way for Xian H 6 aircraft to drop MOABs on the beach, destroying minefields and bunkers. In the end, the rest of the work was assigned to the Marines.

That's hilariously wrong on quite a few levels haha.

For instance, quite a few Taiwanese airbases are built into the mountains on the eastern side of the island and are reinforced against anything up to a nuclear blast. Do you think the PLA will nuclear first strike Taiwan FangYuan?
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Furthermore, the idea that the ROCA would have any logistics left to conduct sustained combat operations of their mechanized forces (what formations remain), nevermind to be able to effectively coordinate them with destruction of their C4I system and still remaining under heavy EW pressure with PLA hunter killer UAVs overhead... is optimistic.
I don't see why.
Limited logistics is doable(if prepared for this contingency) even after prolonged, "no bullshit", strategic bombing/interdiction campaign. 20/80 rule.

We're talking about a compressed one here(no time to waste here), against a fortified island, protected by a very robust a2/ad and significant Air Force. And yes, while it is useless for this conversation, I don't really see such "no bullshit" operation. There is a clear political agenda in this campaign, and it goes again destruction of civilian life.

Hunter-killer UAVs overhead will have to wait till AD network is degraded into nothing. They're the most persistent, but also the most vulnerable form of aerial interdiction.


Finally I don't know why you believe the logistical chain would be vulnerable (against whom? Does the ROCAF and ROCN still exist by this point in the contingency), nor why you think the PLA would have "limited" cross strait fires given everything I listed before, and I don't see how Taiwan would be at the "outer edge" of what's achievable with "tactical means". Do you appreciate the sheer number of LSTs and LPDs and even LCTs that the PLAN and PLA have respectively? The distance between the ETC eastern staging areas and Taiwan's west coast is also well within range of medium and heavy transport helicopters, assuming for some reason they didn't use their LPDs as helicopter deployment platforms (not to mention their upcoming 075s).
Taiwan itself is a hub for ASM, mining, and more. Many of these weapon systems are about as resilent as it can possibly be, and can be completely and reliably shut down only by physical occupation of ground under them. And this, in turn, will take a lot of time and land combat.

The weapon systems you've listed...we still have gun&mortar artillery, when there are so many cool and fancy rockets and bombs. This is something much of this list can't really do. And what's left is clearly nowhere near enough for the task. Solution requires expanded beachhead.

P. s. Yes, i am acutely aware of both their number and capabilities. This was part of my first master's thesis. :)
Count radii and daily turn-out rate for two-way trips, loading/offloading complications, and so on. It's a very complex operation, and operation unavoidably vulnerable to disruptions.

Do you think the ROCA will be able to organize anything larger than a battalion sized counter attack against a landed force, when the PLA has air superiority and 24 hr on station wide area ground surveillance as well as closer in EO airborne ISR from UAVs?
Hah. Not impossible (same example with Medina in 2003), and i don't expect such conditions to materialize nowhere near instantly anyway.
Furthermore, even in such conditions, Taiwan still has geographical "second line". Terrain matters.

p. s. Come to think of it, Iraq '2003 is actually a really good (and largely unknown!) example. It's a war, which is perceived by most as a slaughter on IR screen(recent Karabakh fills this description just as well). Actual operational warfare(quite interesting one) is simply forgotten and left to boring professional periodicals. Who cares about boring stuff when you can count IRBMs, Bayraktars and other flashy cabooms...

IMO, Taiwan has virtually no strategic depth against PLA strikes and fires systems. In a conflict, simply put, nowhere is safe, and anything fixed or semi mobile of high value will be targeted by either an SRBM, ALCM, air launched SOM, or long range MLRS (all guided of course), or even a IRBM if it's particularly valuable.
This isn't exactly the first time this is the case in history of warfare.
Taiwan, unlike most such cases, has favourable(and prepared) ground and means of A2AD.

My argument is that I think the ROCA as it currently is would have a difficult time preventing a PLA amphibious assault from succeeding and establishing a beachhead, but that they could make it a very difficult grind through the island after that by using more irregular tactics and urban warfare to try to bleed the PLA as much as possible.
Yes, we can agree on this.
I, however, currently assume what complete grinding down of ROC armed forces(as well as too bold of a rush) is unlikely, for two main competing reasons: on one hand, PRC is very likely to be running against the clock. Taiwan conflict simply can't be taken out of context, this context, after all, is perhaps the single reason it still exists. On the other hand, though, current PLA has to be cautious. Days when it could simply absorb causalities are gone.

Bltizo
Blitzo
Blitzo
Thank you for useful input. When I'll need a translator, I'll contact you.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Eight submarines in the Taiwan straits is basically nothing compared to the sheer number of ASW planes, helos, corvettes, and submarines the PLA can field in the local area.
This is an obvious reason why we're unlikely to see them there.
And this, in turn, explains why they're quite large.

The current PLA stock of amphibious tanks have enough fuel to go 500 klicks and can move ~20 km/hr in the water. They could literally drive the entire PLA Amphibious Army Group from a beach in the mainland to a beach and Taiwan and still have >2/3 fuel.
Do I really need to explain why it doesn't work this way?
I mean, yes, you can*. No, you don't invade by selecting helluva tanks and giving attack order over the strait.
If anything, because marines may be tough, but 6-7 hour long trip in flat-hulled "sinky" wins over the best of us. Chinese amphibious vehicles are quite unique, and they will have a major role in this conflict, but not this way. Direct assault on small islands near Chinese coast is perfectly feasible, though.

*actually you can't, 500km figure is for roadway. But for the sake of argument let's assume it's doable.


This isn't World War II. Most modern Roll-on Roll-off ships can ship the logistics for an entire battalion with zero need for an intact harbor infrastructure or engineering equipment as long as the harbor hasn't literally been excavated into a crater by a nuke and the PRC has hundreds of these vessels.
?! Most ro-ro ships can't even approach unprepared coastline.
Even specialized LSTs and alike are limited to suitable coastline.

Grinding port infrastructure into generously mined dust is well known since exactly WW2: see, say, Cherbourg.
There is a long-established alternative(Blitzo mentioned it above: temporary harbors and piers), but it isn't fully equal, susceptible to weather, and ultimately temporary.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
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The Ministry of National Defense (MND) yesterday rejected speculation that it might be planning to purchase arms worth US$5.2 billion from the US next year. .....

People familiar with the matter who spoke on the condition of anonymity said that the confusion stemmed from differences in budgeting cycles in Taiwan and the US. In the US, a fiscal year begins on Oct. 1 and ends on Sept. 30 the following year, they said.

For the fiscal year 2020, notified arms sales to Taiwan totaled US$11.8 billion, while for the fiscal year 2021, which began in last month, US$5.8 billion in arms sales have already been disclosed, they said, adding that all these sales have already been made public.

Makes sense. I was struggling to think of what Taiwan was going to buy so soon after the recent purchases.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I don't see why.
Limited logistics is doable(if prepared for this contingency) even after prolonged, "no bullshit", strategic bombing/interdiction campaign. 20/80 rule.

We're talking about a compressed one here(no time to waste here), against a fortified island, protected by a very robust a2/ad and significant Air Force. And yes, while it is useless for this conversation, I don't really see such "no bullshit" operation. There is a clear political agenda in this campaign, and it goes again destruction of civilian life.

Hunter-killer UAVs overhead will have to wait till AD network is degraded into nothing. They're the most persistent, but also the most vulnerable form of aerial interdiction.

I think we have differing opinions as to just how well fortified Taiwan currently is as an island and how well trained their ground forces are for the kind of operation you're talking about, at present.
I think we also have significant differences in opinion as to the actual survivability of their air force.

Hunter killer UAVs will obviously require the destruction or crippling of their main IADS and primary radars but ROCAF SAMs are not mobile in the same way Russian and PLA SAMs are and are limited in numbers and various deployment sites likely extensively recce'd by the PLA over the years. Couple that with the scale of PLA ELINT and EW capabilities, I don't see ROC IADS being able to put up much of a fight within a week or so of a bombardment starting.
The PLA will suffer UAV losses of course here and there, but that's not the point.


Taiwan itself is a hub for ASM, mining, and more. Many of these weapon systems are about as resilent as it can possibly be, and can be completely and reliably shut down only by physical occupation of ground under them. And this, in turn, will take a lot of time and land combat.

The weapon systems you've listed...we still have gun&mortar artillery, when there are so many cool and fancy rockets and bombs. This is something much of this list can't really do. And what's left is clearly nowhere near enough for the task. Solution requires expanded beachhead.

P. s. Yes, i am acutely aware of both their number and capabilities. This was part of my first master's thesis. :)
Count radii and daily turn-out rate for two-way trips, loading/offloading complications, and so on. It's a very complex operation, and operation unavoidably vulnerable to disruptions.

A successful "A2/AD" strategy requires you to have the strategic depths to have platforms to your weapons in the first place, where your deployment platforms should optimally be at as low risk of physical destruction from enemy fires as possible.
Taiwan has no strategic depth given the scale and range of PLA fires and recce and the proximity of Taiwan to China.
This isn't to say that spamming mines and AShMs will not be able to exact casualties of their own, but when your opponent has fires and ISR that outmasses and out-envelopes you to the degree the PLA currently does, the viability of your "A2/AD" weapons is much reduced due to sheer proximity.

As for gun and mortar artillery -- of course those systems are relevant. Those systems will be landed after the seizure of the beach, or perhaps even partially during the seizure of the beach by virtue of the PLA's own amphibious capable SPHs. No one suggested the entire ground invasion would rely on MLRS, SRBMs, and air power for the entire conflict. The role of MLRS, SRBMs, and airpower will be to enable the seizure of the beach and assist in interdicting enemy forces that attempt to counter attack initially.


Hah. Not impossible (same example with Medina in 2003), and i don't expect such conditions to materialize nowhere near instantly anyway.
Furthermore, even in such conditions, Taiwan still has geographical "second line". Terrain matters.

p. s. Come to think of it, Iraq '2003 is actually a really good (and largely unknown!) example. It's a war, which is perceived by most as a slaughter on IR screen(recent Karabakh fills this description just as well). Actual operational warfare(quite interesting one) is simply forgotten and left to boring professional periodicals. Who cares about boring stuff when you can count IRBMs, Bayraktars and other flashy cabooms...

I agree with "not impossible". The likelihood of something like that happening is of course certainly greater than zero.



This isn't exactly the first time this is the case in history of warfare.
Taiwan, unlike most such cases, has favourable(and prepared) ground and means of A2AD.

I really don't see how you interpret Taiwan's geography and proximity to China as "favourable" to its efforts to seek an effective defensive strategy with the current and foreseeable balance of forces.


Yes, we can agree on this.
I, however, currently assume what complete grinding down of ROC armed forces(as well as too bold of a rush) is unlikely, for two main competing reasons: on one hand, PRC is very likely to be running against the clock. Taiwan conflict simply can't be taken out of context, this context, after all, is perhaps the single reason it still exists. On the other hand, though, current PLA has to be cautious. Days when it could simply absorb causalities are gone.

I don't expect the complete grinding down of the ROC armed forces, but I do expect the ROCAF, ROCN and ROC IADS, C4I, to be either crippled or significantly degraded after a week of conflict (unless ROC procurement in the near future significantly changes), and that the effectiveness of the ROCA would be significantly impeded by lack of air control and the exposed nature of the western coast that would make an attempt to counter attack difficult to coordinate at best.

If we're talking about the potential for US intervention, well yes obviously the PLA will be holding back the majority of its naval and air forces and longer range missile systems in reserve, the bulk of its amphibious assault ships and SRBMs and MLRS, or its heavy and medium CABs won't be useful in a high intensity air-naval conflict against the US anyway.

If you're arguing that the ROCA may be able to exact the most casualties against the PLA in the ground phase of the operation, particularly in urban warfare and warfare deeper into the island properly, sure, I have no disagreement with this at all and is a position I've held for quite a long time as well.



I feel like all of this discussion might be missing the point a little.
I'm not suggesting that such a conflict would be "easy" for the PLA to achieve a victory in, or that it would be effortless or that they would suffer no/minimal casualties or require no political and societal resolve.
What I am suggesting is that in the context of the PLA's capabilities today, and into the foreseeable future, the balance of likelihoods of a PLA success vs a ROC success is now meaningfully in the former's corner, and that what used to be useful geographical distances and depth that Taiwan as an island could enjoy as a "natural fortress", are now largely either hindered or made irrelevant by the range, persistence and scale of contemporary PLA air, missile and naval capabilities.

To paraphrase a foreign policy article written a few years ago, yes Taiwan "can" win a war against China, in the sense that the word "can" implies a possibility that is greater than zero.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
To paraphrase a foreign policy article written a few years ago, yes Taiwan "can" win a war against China, in the sense that the word "can" implies a possibility that is greater than zero.

A good question would be, is there any military procurement policy (save for stealing some nuclear warheads) that will bring Taiwan's chances of winning a war against China above 50%? If so, obviously Taiwan should follow it. However, if we're talking about increasing it from 10% to 15%, is there any reason in putting what Taiwan's plans are under a microscope?
 

silentlurker

Junior Member
Registered Member
Can someone explain:

"The shallow, noisy waters of the Taiwan Strait greatly favor submarines over air and surface [anti-submarine warfare] forces"

Why do subs have the advantage in shallow waters? I would think being forced to operate close to the surface would make them easier to detect, not harder.
 
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