Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

McCain does what he does, but Obama is a very different story. China is on the verge of riding out the Bush/Chen storm and be in very good diplomatic territory with Ma/Obama. But China has to be ready in 2012. The current friendly administration in Taipei and around the world diminishes the possibility of cross-strait relations eroding to that during the Chen years. However, if relations do erode to that level, Beijing's tolerance would not be that high.

All I care about is that Taiwan gets that $12 billion dollars worth of arms and additionally new M1A2 tanks when Taiwan needs them. US administrations should not forget that the Taiwan Relations Act exists. Thats all I'm going to say for now.

One other note, anyone know any other part of the Taiwanese military that needs upgrading? And what about new frigates for Taiwan? I remember that Taiwan needed new AEGIS frigates or something.

kliu0 said:

All I care about is that Taiwan gets that $12 billion dollars worth of arms and additionally new M1A2 tanks when Taiwan needs them. US administrations should not forget that the Taiwan Relations Act exists. Thats all I'm going to say for now.

One other note, anyone know any other part of the Taiwanese military that needs upgrading? And what about new frigates for Taiwan? I remember that Taiwan needed new AEGIS frigates or something.

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I'm not aware of any M1A2 orders, but do think the ROC Army's M60A3's could use an upgrade:



New purchases always involve a lot of politics, but upgrades to existing systems should be easier to squeeze through. I doubt the ROC could obtain Israel's Sabra package, so that leaves GD's M60-2000/120S.

The upgrade kits can be imported from the US and assembled locally, with some tech transfers for local production of spares. Rebuilding up to 450 ROC Army M60's would provide additional jobs for several years. The upgraded tanks with 120mm gun will be more competitive to newer PLA MBT's.

I don't have an estimated cost for the M60-2000 program, but will say that it's less advanced than Turkey's Sabra III upgrade program at cost of $4-5 million per unit, so it should be cheaper ($2-3 million?). In comparison, the price on a refurbished M1 tank today is probably $9-$10 million in a package (citing Australian purchase).

I'd also like to see the existing inventory of UH-1H rebuilt to UH-1Y specs, and the AH-1W rebuilt to AH-1Z Viper specs. This can wait until after the USMC's helicopter upgrade/rebuild program works out the bugs. Like the M60-2000 upgrade program, the rebuild can be performed locally by ROC aviation industry, providing for jobs and some tech transfers.

USMC's total program cost on the H-1 program to upgrade 180 AH-1W and 100 UH-1 is estimated at $5.5 billion USD. The average unit cost is $19.6 million USD. ROC Army's fleet is smaller, and since US already paid for the R&D, should cost less per unit.

As for new frigates, originally there was a plan to build the last localy-built OH Perry FFG with Aegis system, if successful they'd build 3 more. But the program was scrapped due to risks. Now that the Norwegian navy have built ~5,000 ton displacement ships with the smaller AN/SPY-1F, I think it can be done for ROCN too.

I'd estimate (based on European program costs) the total program cost of building 4 x ~5,000 ton Aegis warships for the ROCN to be ~$4 billion dollars by completion (in the 2010's) & equipped with 4 x 8-cel Mk41 VLS. This accounts for inflation and reasonable cost over-runs. It won't be cheap but at least the ships will be new and built locally, not hand-me-down's.

I thought of that (M60-2000) upgrade a long time ago and came to the same conclusion. Taiwan won't get anything off from Israel, I mean Israel sells weapons technology to China. Taiwan won't be able to get new MBTs from Germany (Leopard 2) which I absolutely believe is better as it is lighter and smaller than the M1A2. Therefore Taiwan is only able to get the M1A2, because of its military ties to the US. The thing is no one knows when Taiwan is going to upgrade their tanks, I've seen some Taiwanese newspapers report that the military is going through a selection/recommendation process on what to do. It's reported that the procurement process would begin in 2010, and that the procurement would not replace all of the M60A3 and M48H tanks, as the M60A3 would still be used primarly as well. The link is here if you can read Traditional chinese (or use auto translate)


I'm presuming that the AH-1Ws in service won't be replaced when Taiwan purchases the new AH-64D Apache Longbows. The military has been lobbying for advanced helicopters and I think they won't change their minds about buying the Apaches. What they desparately need is the fire and forget technology that the Apaches have with the Hellfire missiles. Perhaps they'll upgrade the AH-1Ws and purchase the AH-64Ds as well. That'll make my day. XD.

The UH-60 Blackhawks come with better command and control equipment dont they? I know the policy of the ROC is to integrate better equipment, so yea I don't really know. I mean I know Taiwan will still produce the UH-1H for years to come, but don't know if they'll upgrade.

Don't forget that with new equipment comes with boosted morale. Thats what Taiwan really needs, and new equipment will give Taiwan a better edge in Air Superiority.

The US doesn't have stealth frigates like the French or Germans do they? You can't fit AEGIS onto the La Fayette class frigates that Taiwan has can you? Because if you could that would give an edge in the Navy. Stealth fighting ship = Naval Superiority.

If only if only, the US wouldn't freeze the weapons procurement.....Who cares about the olympics? Only the athletes, which one is more important Taiwan's 23 million people and its billions of dollars ready to spent or China's olympics which really doesn't have an impact?

For a supposed 'stealthier' ship like the French La Fayette, it sure has a big honking radar signature that ain't better than most other frigates in service... furthermore, the sea handling characteristics leave much to be desired...

You serious? I thought that the design reduced radar signatures by up to 60% or something like that. What about the new USN assault ships?

When I mentioned the 5,000 ton Aegis Frigate (Destroyer?), I mean locally built in Taiwan. The design could bootleg the Europeans for all I care. I'm just shamelessly pro-ROC industry.

The AH-1Z does have limited "fire and forget" capability via Hellfire missiles:




I'm not saying that new purchases is bad, but I also think they've been so politically controversial that it's time to look at alternatives. I know it's impossible for ROC to develop everything locally so importing the technology is acceptable. To sum up my recommendations:

* Upgrade M60's with M60-2000/120S program
* Upgrade AH-1W and UH-1H to AH-1Z & UH-1Y
* Build a fleet of 4 x 5,000 ton AAW Frigates locally with AN/SPY-1F system
* Upgrade entire fleet of IDF A/B to C/D specs
* Re-open IDF manufacture line to produce IDF 60-120 LIFT variant ($16 million USD each) to replace F-5E/F and AT-3's for training
* Fund next-generation ADF R&D program

I'd also add that for future (new) F-16 C/D or possibly M1 Abrams orders, the ROC government should negotiate for at least 50% kit assembly in Taiwan. That is, if 120 F-16's are ordered, at least 60 should be assembled in TW by AIDC.

You mentioned the IDF C/D specs, are they the new IDFs that were shown off last year?

I agree, if Taiwan isn't able to get any F-16s they should use that money to buy new IDFs instead and invest more money into R&D for the future of IDFs. The AEGIS may sound good but I heard its very costly. But to upgrade to AH-1Z specs and UH-1Y specs doesn't it require foreign military sales notification to congress? I mean they are selling military upgrades. The question is not whether or not Taiwan is willing to bootleg the La Fayette, but rather does the ROC have the money and the resources to build them?

kliu0 said:

You mentioned the IDF C/D specs, are they the new IDFs that were shown off last year?

I agree, if Taiwan isn't able to get any F-16s they should use that money to buy new IDFs instead and invest more money into R&D for the future of IDFs. The AEGIS may sound good but I heard its very costly. But to upgrade to AH-1Z specs and UH-1Y specs doesn't it require foreign military sales notification to congress? I mean they are selling military upgrades. The question is not whether or not Taiwan is willing to bootleg the La Fayette, but rather does the ROC have the money and the resources to build them?

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Yes, the IDF C/D is the "Brave Hawk" shown last year.



The upgrade enables the IDF to carry 4 x TC-2 AAM's, ability to use TC-2A ARM, new computers, EW, AIFF, terrain following radar, additional fuel, better range, etc.

Assuming a 30-year lifespan, the current fleet of IDF's are good for another 15-20 years, while the F-5E/F and AT-3's are either beyond or near their end-of-life cycle. I'd like to see the F-5 and AT-3's replaced by new IDF LIFT trainers.

Yes, any military sales from US require notification to Congress, but upgrading existing systems is far less controversial than new system sales to both ROC and US governments. Also note that the IDF LIFT is a trainer and not a combat aircraft. I'll make a rough estimate on costs for my own "$11 billion package":

* M-60 MBT upgrade/rebuild (400): $1.2 billion
* AH-1 & UH-1 upgrade/rebuild (140): $3 billion
* New 5,000 ton AAW Frigate (4): $4 billion
* IDF mid-life upgrade (120): $? (at least few hundred million+)
* New IDF LIFT Trainers (120): $2 billion
* ADF R&D Program: $1 billion

Other "nice to have" stuff... M109 PIM upgrade:



Most of the upgrade work would be done in TW, even if it's just assembly of kits. The purchase should also include some tech transfer and local production of spare parts. Taiwan has lost a lot of manufacturing jobs to out-sourcing, the local defense industry could provide vital jobs to economically depressed areas.

On that note, I also think that the PRC-ROC direct flight should be eventually expanded to daily and not just weekends, the influx of tourists should bring lots of jobs too. But the port of entry should be restricted to Taichung for better security management. Mainland tourists would be encouraged to check out "middle Taiwan" before hopping on the high speed rail to visit Taipei or Kaohsiung. Yes, visit Changhua and eat our meat balls, dammit. ;p

kliu0 said:

You serious? I thought that the design reduced radar signatures by up to 60% or something like that. What about the new USN assault ships?

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Capability-wise, the La Fayette is inferior in most respects to other frigates that were designed and built at the same time.

In theory, the La Fayette should have a radar signature smaller than a OHP, but it doesn't... I won't get into that because that is OPSEC.