Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Ultra

Ultra

Junior Member
The idea of Taiwanese next generation indigenous fighter in under 10 years is just moronic. Taiwan not only doesn't have the industry and tech to do it, nor the manpower and talents. Even Japan is finding it difficult to produce a stealth fighter. I think it would take Taiwan, Japan and South Korea's combined talent to develop one "indigenous" fighter..

The most likely outcome would be what Skywatcher said. F-CK-1 IDF reshaped with edge alignments / platforming, maybe with DSI thrown in, with a coat of metal polymer paint as stealth coating. It will still have a vastly inferior Honeywell/ITEC F125 engine, but maybe an upgraded AESA radar like the APG-83 from F-16V which Taiwan recently purchased.

It will basically ended look like this:
Pakistan_Air_Force_Pakistan_JF-17_Thunder_Bidini-1.jpg


:D
 
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Ultra said:
The idea of Taiwanese next generation indigenous fighter in under 10 years is just moronic. Taiwan not only doesn't have the industry and tech to do it, nor the manpower and talents. Even Japan is finding it difficult to produce a stealth fighter. I think it would take Taiwan, Japan and South Korea's combined talent to develop one "indigenous" fighter.
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You should be very careful not to underestimate either Korea or especially Japan.

Japan is perfectly capable of designing, developing, and building their own...and they are proceeding forward to do so.

Their biggest problem is cost.

But this has not stopped them from producing an excellent modern, enhanced aircraft in the F-2. It is arguably a new build, very advanced F-16 Block 52 with a better and larger wing, better radar and other sensors, as well as the improved F110-GE-129 engine..

They are just VERY expensive. They could buy three Block 52 F-16s for each one F-2. But that have ordered something like 130 F-2s in any case.

I expect they are looking to do the same type of thing with their own stealth fighter. They will get some F-35s for sure, but I expect they will augment them with their own 5th gen aircraft.

I believe Korea is capable of doing the same...albeit my confidence level is not as high with them.

Taiwan will not produce an advanced 5th generation aircraft on its own...but that does not man that they will not produce a very decent aircraft in any case.

But comparing their F-CK-1 aircraft, particularly the C/D version which is what they are upgrading to, to the JF-17 is simply not an apt comparison. The ROC is upgrading most of its A/B aircraft to the C/ version. That version is simply a very decent 4th generation aircraft with very much enhanced avionics, radar, electronics, and weapons capabilities over the initial aircraft. For Taiwan, which is basically a small nation, to have produced these is pretty amazing actually.

Now they are announcing that they want to develop their own future aircraft. As stated above, I expect they will end up doing something, and it will not be half bad when all is said and done.

Somehow disparaging that simply because it is Taiwan is pretty shortsighted in my opinion.

And this thread is not the place for that anyhow. This is not a place, and SD is not a place, where members throw poop bombs on other threads just because we have a low estimation of them.

Do they have the capabilities of a US...or China...or Japan? Of course not. but they are willing to step up and do what they can themselves...and in their situation, it is pretty much all they can do.

I respect them for it.
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
The problem is that the DPP is crazy enough to think that they can develop what's essentially a 4.5+ generation fighter for just USD $2-3 billion, which suggests that they're either dishonest or naively incompetent.

Doubly so when you consider than they want to make as much of it domestically as possible. Such a fighter might look like the F-CK-1 externally, but it'll be a pretty different creature on the inside.
 
D

delft

Brigadier
Jeff Head said:
You should be very careful not to underestimate either Korea or especially Japan.

Japan is perfectly capable of designing, developing, and building their own...and they are proceeding forward to do so.

Their biggest problem is cost.

But this has not stopped them from producing an excellent modern, enhanced aircraft in the F-2. It is arguably a new build, very advanced F-16 Block 52 with a better and larger wing, better radar and other sensors, as well as the improved F110-GE-129 engine..

They are just VERY expensive. They could buy three Block 52 F-16s for each one F-2. But that have ordered something like 130 F-2s in any case.

I expect they are looking to do the same type of thing with their own stealth fighter. They will get some F-35s for sure, but I expect they will augment them with their own 5th gen aircraft.

I believe Korea is capable of doing the same...albeit my confidence level is not as high with them.

Taiwan will not produce an advanced 5th generation aircraft on its own...but that does not man that they will not produce a very decent aircraft in any case.

But comparing their F-CK-1 aircraft, particularly the C/D version which is what they are upgrading to, to the JF-17 is simply not an apt comparison. The ROC is upgrading most of its A/B aircraft to the C/ version. That version is simply a very decent 4th generation aircraft with very much enhanced avionics, radar, electronics, and weapons capabilities over the initial aircraft. For Taiwan, which is basically a small nation, to have produced these is pretty amazing actually.

Now they are announcing that they want to develop their own future aircraft. As stated above, I expect they will end up doing something, and it will not be half bad when all is said and done.

Somehow disparaging that simply because it is Taiwan is pretty shortsighted in my opinion.

And this thread is not the place for that anyhow. This is not a place, and SD is not a place, where members throw poop bombs on other threads just because we have a low estimation of them.

Do they have the capabilities of a US...or China...or Japan? Of course not. but they are willing to step up and do what they can themselves...and in their situation, it is pretty much all they can do.

I respect them for it.
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OT
There is a vast difference between the financial and industrial capabilities of these three countries and those of large countries like US and China. When you see what these two countries need to do, and what Russia with a huge tradition needs to do, to get an advanced aircraft designed and build and to set up production, it must be clear that even Japan can't cut it. And when you look at the West European experience, comparing the industrial experience of Euro Fighter with Rafale, there must be little hope for a cooperation between the three, even without China acting against any company taking part in such an enterprise.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
delft said:
OT
There is a vast difference between the financial and industrial capabilities of these three countries and those of large countries like US and China. When you see what these two countries need to do, and what Russia with a huge tradition needs to do, to get an advanced aircraft designed and build and to set up production, it must be clear that even Japan can't cut it. And when you look at the West European experience, comparing the industrial experience of Euro Fighter with Rafale, there must be little hope for a cooperation between the three, even without China acting against any company taking part in such an enterprise.
Click to expand...
We disagree about Japan. And we may find Korea producing something, albeit not as advanced and not as effective. But Japan has the ability...at great cost.

Now, they all depend on help from industrial help from the west. Japan the lest of the three, then Korea, and then Taiwan.

But, as I said, Taiwan has produced its own aircraft in the past, and may do so again. Once again, not as advanced or as effectively as even Korea, but they have shown the ability, to make the effort, cement the industry help, and put something of their own on the table.

Time will tell.
 
F

Franklin

Captain
Jeff Head said:
We disagree about Japan. And we may find Korea producing something, albeit not as advanced and not as effective. But Japan has the ability...at great cost.

Now, they all depend on help from industrial help from the west. Japan the lest of the three, then Korea, and then Taiwan.

But, as I said, Taiwan has produced its own aircraft in the past, and may do so again. Once again, not as advanced or as effectively as even Korea, but they have shown the ability, to make the effort, cement the industry help, and put something of their own on the table.

Time will tell.
Click to expand...
But whatever the Taiwanese build it has to be able to standup against the J-10B/C, J-16 and the J-11D of China or else what is the point. Nevermind the J-20 or the J-31.

The problem with Taiwan is that after the last F-CK-1 rolled off of the assembly line in december of 1999 the plant has closed down and most of the people who build and developed the plane has left for other jobs or went abroad. That is 16 years ago now. Most of the machines and equipment that where used to build the F-CK-1 has either fallen into disrepare or are now used for other purposses. The people who have developed the F-CK-1 in the early 1980's are all retired by now and Taiwan hasn't develop a new generation of engineers and designers to follow up. Taiwan is now looking for foreign help to build new basic trainer jets for their air force.

The Taiwanese will be able to build a new fighter if they get A LOT of foreign help and even then they will need a lot of money and time. Its just that the timeline and the sum of money mentioned in the article are totally unrealistic. And outside of that article I haven't been able to find anything else about Taiwan wanting to develop a new fighter jet.
 
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Franklin said:
But whatever the Taiwanese build it has to be able to standup against the J-10B/C, J-16 and the J-11D of China or else what is the point. Nevermind the J-20 or the J-31.
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Taiwan is in a defensive posture.

If they can build something decent that can get into the air and carry and utilize strong, modern AAW missiles, then they will be immeasurably better off than if they do not.

And they would have to have them in numbers.

Taiwan is not trying to, or capable of defeating the PRC...all they can hope to do is hold on long enough for help to arrive.

Let's hope that never occurs.
 
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Ultra

Ultra

Junior Member
Jeff Head said:
You should be very careful not to underestimate either Korea or especially Japan.

Japan is perfectly capable of designing, developing, and building their own...and they are proceeding forward to do so.

Their biggest problem is cost.

But this has not stopped them from producing an excellent modern, enhanced aircraft in the F-2. It is arguably a new build, very advanced F-16 Block 52 with a better and larger wing, better radar and other sensors, as well as the improved F110-GE-129 engine..

They are just VERY expensive. They could buy three Block 52 F-16s for each one F-2. But that have ordered something like 130 F-2s in any case.

I expect they are looking to do the same type of thing with their own stealth fighter. They will get some F-35s for sure, but I expect they will augment them with their own 5th gen aircraft.

I believe Korea is capable of doing the same...albeit my confidence level is not as high with them.

Taiwan will not produce an advanced 5th generation aircraft on its own...but that does not man that they will not produce a very decent aircraft in any case.

But comparing their F-CK-1 aircraft, particularly the C/D version which is what they are upgrading to, to the JF-17 is simply not an apt comparison. The ROC is upgrading most of its A/B aircraft to the C/ version. That version is simply a very decent 4th generation aircraft with very much enhanced avionics, radar, electronics, and weapons capabilities over the initial aircraft. For Taiwan, which is basically a small nation, to have produced these is pretty amazing actually.

Now they are announcing that they want to develop their own future aircraft. As stated above, I expect they will end up doing something, and it will not be half bad when all is said and done.

Somehow disparaging that simply because it is Taiwan is pretty shortsighted in my opinion.

And this thread is not the place for that anyhow. This is not a place, and SD is not a place, where members throw poop bombs on other threads just because we have a low estimation of them.

Do they have the capabilities of a US...or China...or Japan? Of course not. but they are willing to step up and do what they can themselves...and in their situation, it is pretty much all they can do.

I respect them for it.
Click to expand...




Japan doesn't even have a jet engine for their fighter - they are designing one right now......how far along nobody knows! Their last indigenous fighter the F-2, was using the
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Same with South Korea, no indigenous engine of their own (KAI T-50 uses F404). It is basically the same story as PRC right now, they know how to make everything else but the engine. ;)

F-CK-1 is basically a hugely under-powered F-16 (with some resemblence to YF-17). Due to China's political pressure internationally nobody dares to sell any engine of worth to Taiwan so F-CK-1 or any next generation fighter will forever be "short-legged" - It can't run fast, and it won't run far.

Against the "lower-tier" older Chinese frontline fighters like J-7, JH-7, J-8 it might stand a chance. And it might even stand a chance against the JF-17 (which PLAAF doesn't have), but against the newer "lower-tier" J-10 forget about it. Let's not even talk about Su-27/Su-30MKK/J-11/J-15. For Taiwan to produce something that can go against J-11/J-15/J-16 would take probably decades at least unless USA / Lockmart lends a heavy hand (basically hand over the blueprints like they did with F-CK-1). And it will STILL have the problem with underpowered jet engines. Taiwan simply doesn't have the capacity to design such thing now as majority of the talents had long since left Taiwan after F-CK-1 project finished 30 years ago. Starting now would mean starting from scratch again.
 
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D

delft

Brigadier
Jeff Head said:
Taiwan is in a defensive posture.

If they can build something decent that can get into the air and carry and utilize strong, modern AAW missiles, then they will be immeasurably better off than if they do not.

And they would have to have them in numbers.

Taiwan is not trying to, or capable of defeating the PRC...all they can hope to do is hold on long enough for help to arrive.

Let's hope that never occurs.
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The time of war over Taiwan passed long ago. If the Taiwan government does something extremely stupid it can be defeated without war.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Jeff Head said:
Taiwan is in a defensive posture.

If they can build something decent that can get into the air and carry and utilize strong, modern AAW missiles, then they will be immeasurably better off than if they do not.

And they would have to have them in numbers.

Taiwan is not trying to, or capable of defeating the PRC...all they can hope to do is hold on long enough for help to arrive.

Let's hope that never occurs.
Click to expand...

Taiwan has been in a "defensive posture" for decades ever since they have realized the reality that "operation retaking the Motherland" has became fruitless and NOT going to happen. They know nobody's realistically going to rescue that illegal regime with China's current A2/AD are has been implemented and getting better and better.
 
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