The US is more cautious about selling Taiwan state-of-the-art weapons than Japan or South Korea because they are most likely to be compromised by PRC intelligence efforts there. Or in the event of a hot war however unlikely, still more likely than with Japan or South Korea, directly end up in PRC hands.
Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter Gollevainen
- Start date
The US is more cautious about selling Taiwan state-of-the-art weapons than Japan or South Korea because they are most likely to be compromised by PRC intelligence efforts there. Or in the event of a hot war however unlikely, still more likely than with Japan or South Korea, directly end up in PRC hands.
Taiwan's Navy, though filled with transferred US Navy technology, is no slouch.
They have seven major surface combatant classes that I will cover over the next couple of posts.
The first four classes represent a force of twenty-six capable, major surface combatants. All of them are principally foreign designed (either US Navy or French), but do incorporate some ROC weapons and sensors.
Kee Lung Class Destroyers (ex-US Navy Kidd Class)
These four destroyers are Taiwan's largest and most capable Naval combatants. They represent the transfer of the entire Kidd-class vessels of the US Navy. The Kidd class were initially built for the Shah of Iran and were highly upgraded versions of the Spruance class destroyers.
They are very quiet (for ASW operations), carried two Sea Haw helicopters, had two, twin armed missile launchers for Standard missiles (and were just like the US nuclear cruisers and the initial Ticonderoga cruisers in that regard), each with a forty missile magazine, the carrier eight Harpoon missiles, two Phalnx 20mm CIWS, two three tube torpedo launchers, and two 127mm DP guns.
They are packed with an array of very modern, very sophisticated sensors from sonars to air radar to surface radar and very good electronics.
They were built to be air conditioned for the very hot Mid-East conditions, and were typically called "AEGIS-Light," by US Navy personnel because they were so capable in all regards.
These destroyers can operate in a cooperative engagement mode with US Navy AEGIS class destroyers and Cruisers, which is a very powerful capability.
These four vessels are the Republic of China's Navy (ROCN) to the four Sovremenny destroyers that the PLAN received from Russia.
Cheng Kung Class Frigates(US Navy Oliver Hazard Perry Class)
.
The ROCN currently has eight of these vessels which were license built by the ROC in Taiwan. The ROCN is in the process of purchasing two more from the US Navy which will result in a total of ten such vessels.
They are strong multi-role frigates and can be data linked to US Navy combatants, particularly AEGIS destroyers.
They include forty SM-1 MR anti-air medium ranged missiles. They have seperate launchers for eight surface to surface missiles, thereby reserving all 40 standard missile slots for air defense (where the US Navy vessels launched their SSMs from the single armed launcher, thereby using up part of their missile magazine. The vessels are also armed with six torpedo tubes, a rapid firing, dual-purpose 76mm naval gun, a 20mm Phalanx CIWS, two 40mm bofors cannons (also added specially for the ROCN ships), and can carry two S-70 C Seahawk ASW helicopters in their large hanger, aft on the vessels.
Their modern sensor suite is well suited for air, surface, and sub-surface search, acquisition and targeting.
Kang ding Class Frigates (French La Faytette Class)
These six modern frigates were built to the French La Fayette Frigte design, with changes for Taiwan.
In 1992, the ROC contracted with prime contractor Thales (formerly Thomson CSF), arranging for the construction of these six French Lafayette style ships. Weapons assembly was to take place in Taiwan, carried out by the China SB Corporation at Kaohsiung. The frigates were built in France at state shipbuilder DCN's Lorient Naval Dockyard.
These frigates were built to the stealthy Lafayette design but differ both structurally and particularly in the weapons fit since the French refused to sell the modern French weapons systems, though they did sell them the sensors. Using US and indigenous weapons, the frigate's anti-submarine capability has been considerably enhanced and additional guns have also been fitted.
They are armed with a 76mm DP gun, two 40mm Bofors cannons, six torpedoe launchers, eight Hsung Feng II anti-shipping/surface missiles, one Phalanx 20mm CIWS, a single ASW helicopter with hanger, and a Se Chaparral anti-air system with four ready to fire missiles.
Without a modern anti-air weapon, the ROC looked initially at the US Rolling Air Frame Missile (RAM) system for these vessel for a future refit. However, that purchase and refit never occurred. Recently the ROCN announced their intention to fit the vessels with a Taiwan indigenous Ship-Based Tien Chien II/Sky Sword II missile system in 2017. With a range between 2 and 60 kilometers, this modern system will provide very adequate air defense for the Kang Ding FFGs, as well as any vessels they might escort. This system will greatly enhance the AAW capabilities of these vessels.
Until that time, the vessels remain markedly under armed in terms of air defense relying on an antiquated Sea Chaparral system. It is only capable of countering low-flying aircraft and lacks antimissile capability and does not have a very good anti-jamming capability. After the four loaded missiles are fired, the remaining eight have to be manually loaded, so it cannot adapt to modern war at sea threat conditions.
The primary role of these frigates, like the US Perry FFG derived Cheng Kung frigates, is, in conjunction with other ROCN vessels, to provide sea control, particularly protecting ROC sea lanes and ROC interests in the South China Sea and Twaian Straits.
Chi Yang Class Frigates (ex-US Navy Knox Class)
The Chi Yang class represents older US Navy Knox class frigates that were sold to Taiwan in the 1990s, after the end of their US Navy service life.
These vessels were multi-role frigates, but well known vfor their ASW capabilities.
They have been upgraded with newer weapons systems, and added ten Standard Missile box launchers to each vessel, significantly increasing their anti-air defense capability.
In addition to the ten SM-1 anti-air missiles, these vessels are armed with a single ASW helo, a 127mm gun, an eight cell box launcher for ASROC ASW weapons and Harpoon missiles, a 20mm Phalanx CIWS, and four ASW torpedoes.
The Republic of China Navy received eight of these vessels in the 1990s and they are all still active
They have seven major surface combatant classes that I will cover over the next couple of posts.
The first four classes represent a force of twenty-six capable, major surface combatants. All of them are principally foreign designed (either US Navy or French), but do incorporate some ROC weapons and sensors.
Kee Lung Class Destroyers (ex-US Navy Kidd Class)
These four destroyers are Taiwan's largest and most capable Naval combatants. They represent the transfer of the entire Kidd-class vessels of the US Navy. The Kidd class were initially built for the Shah of Iran and were highly upgraded versions of the Spruance class destroyers.
They are very quiet (for ASW operations), carried two Sea Haw helicopters, had two, twin armed missile launchers for Standard missiles (and were just like the US nuclear cruisers and the initial Ticonderoga cruisers in that regard), each with a forty missile magazine, the carrier eight Harpoon missiles, two Phalnx 20mm CIWS, two three tube torpedo launchers, and two 127mm DP guns.
They are packed with an array of very modern, very sophisticated sensors from sonars to air radar to surface radar and very good electronics.
They were built to be air conditioned for the very hot Mid-East conditions, and were typically called "AEGIS-Light," by US Navy personnel because they were so capable in all regards.
These destroyers can operate in a cooperative engagement mode with US Navy AEGIS class destroyers and Cruisers, which is a very powerful capability.
These four vessels are the Republic of China's Navy (ROCN) to the four Sovremenny destroyers that the PLAN received from Russia.
Cheng Kung Class Frigates(US Navy Oliver Hazard Perry Class)
.
The ROCN currently has eight of these vessels which were license built by the ROC in Taiwan. The ROCN is in the process of purchasing two more from the US Navy which will result in a total of ten such vessels.
They are strong multi-role frigates and can be data linked to US Navy combatants, particularly AEGIS destroyers.
They include forty SM-1 MR anti-air medium ranged missiles. They have seperate launchers for eight surface to surface missiles, thereby reserving all 40 standard missile slots for air defense (where the US Navy vessels launched their SSMs from the single armed launcher, thereby using up part of their missile magazine. The vessels are also armed with six torpedo tubes, a rapid firing, dual-purpose 76mm naval gun, a 20mm Phalanx CIWS, two 40mm bofors cannons (also added specially for the ROCN ships), and can carry two S-70 C Seahawk ASW helicopters in their large hanger, aft on the vessels.
Their modern sensor suite is well suited for air, surface, and sub-surface search, acquisition and targeting.
Kang ding Class Frigates (French La Faytette Class)
These six modern frigates were built to the French La Fayette Frigte design, with changes for Taiwan.
In 1992, the ROC contracted with prime contractor Thales (formerly Thomson CSF), arranging for the construction of these six French Lafayette style ships. Weapons assembly was to take place in Taiwan, carried out by the China SB Corporation at Kaohsiung. The frigates were built in France at state shipbuilder DCN's Lorient Naval Dockyard.
These frigates were built to the stealthy Lafayette design but differ both structurally and particularly in the weapons fit since the French refused to sell the modern French weapons systems, though they did sell them the sensors. Using US and indigenous weapons, the frigate's anti-submarine capability has been considerably enhanced and additional guns have also been fitted.
They are armed with a 76mm DP gun, two 40mm Bofors cannons, six torpedoe launchers, eight Hsung Feng II anti-shipping/surface missiles, one Phalanx 20mm CIWS, a single ASW helicopter with hanger, and a Se Chaparral anti-air system with four ready to fire missiles.
Without a modern anti-air weapon, the ROC looked initially at the US Rolling Air Frame Missile (RAM) system for these vessel for a future refit. However, that purchase and refit never occurred. Recently the ROCN announced their intention to fit the vessels with a Taiwan indigenous Ship-Based Tien Chien II/Sky Sword II missile system in 2017. With a range between 2 and 60 kilometers, this modern system will provide very adequate air defense for the Kang Ding FFGs, as well as any vessels they might escort. This system will greatly enhance the AAW capabilities of these vessels.
Until that time, the vessels remain markedly under armed in terms of air defense relying on an antiquated Sea Chaparral system. It is only capable of countering low-flying aircraft and lacks antimissile capability and does not have a very good anti-jamming capability. After the four loaded missiles are fired, the remaining eight have to be manually loaded, so it cannot adapt to modern war at sea threat conditions.
The primary role of these frigates, like the US Perry FFG derived Cheng Kung frigates, is, in conjunction with other ROCN vessels, to provide sea control, particularly protecting ROC sea lanes and ROC interests in the South China Sea and Twaian Straits.
Chi Yang Class Frigates (ex-US Navy Knox Class)
The Chi Yang class represents older US Navy Knox class frigates that were sold to Taiwan in the 1990s, after the end of their US Navy service life.
These vessels were multi-role frigates, but well known vfor their ASW capabilities.
They have been upgraded with newer weapons systems, and added ten Standard Missile box launchers to each vessel, significantly increasing their anti-air defense capability.
In addition to the ten SM-1 anti-air missiles, these vessels are armed with a single ASW helo, a 127mm gun, an eight cell box launcher for ASROC ASW weapons and Harpoon missiles, a 20mm Phalanx CIWS, and four ASW torpedoes.
The Republic of China Navy received eight of these vessels in the 1990s and they are all still active
Continuing with the ROCN major surface combatants, these next three classes differ markedly from the first four.
They are all indigenous Republic of China (Taiwan) designs and are armed with ROC weapons and sensors.
They are also much smaller ships than the larger frigates and destroyers mentioned above.
Tuo Jiang Class Missile Corvette
This is a very modern, indigenous Taiwan designed and built catamaran missile corvette class.
It is stealthy, heavily armed with anti-surface/shipping missiles, and the most capable home grown and built surface combatant in the ROCN.
The first one was launched in 2014 and commissioned into service in March 215. Twelve vessels are expected to be built.
They displace 500 tons and are armed with sixteen surface to surface missiles. eight supersonic Hsiung Feng III and eight sub-sonic Hsiung Feng II missiles. They are also armed with a 76mm main gun, one Phalanx 20mm CIWS and two, three tube torpedo launchers. They include a landing deck for helicopters, but no hanger. Their landing spaces are meant primarily for Vertical Replenishment (VERTREP) operations.
Ching Chiang Fast Attack Craft
These twelve Fast Attack vessels were built by Taiwan in the late 1990s and early 2000s. They displace 580 tons.
They are armed with four Hsiung Feng I surface to surface missiles, one 40mm/70 AA gun, one 20mm gun, two depth charge racks, and two mine racks. They are meant to operate in groups and patrol Taiwans littoral zones and respond to any danger or threat.
They are meant to provide strong anti-surface response and littoral ASW capabilities, as well as patrol missions against piracy or violations of Taiwan's economic zones.
Kung Hua VI Missile Boats
The Kung Hua missile boats are relative small, fast attack missile boats that displace about 180 tons. There are thirty of these vessels and they were all designed and built in Taiwan between 2007 and 2011.
They are principally armed with four anti-shipping/surface missiles, but also have a single 20mm gun and two 12.7 mm machine guns.
These vessels are designed to operate and groups, from two to four usually, and are meant to prevent aggressive, offensive behavior or attacks by larger surface combatants.from potentially hostile forces.
So, there you have the principal surface combatants of the ROCN.
04 x Kee Lung DDGs (ex-US Navy Kidd Class) 7,300 tons
08 x Ching Kung FFGs (US Navy Oliver Hazard Perry Class) 4.200 tons
06 x Kang Ding FFGs (French La Fayette Class) 3,600 tons
08 x Chi Yang FFGs (ex-US Navy Knox Class 4,250 tons
12 x Tuo Jiang Missile Corvettes 500 tons
12 x Ching Chiang Fast Attack Craft 580 tons
30 x Kung Hua missile boats 180 tons
That's 80 total vessels.
The ROCN also has a single large Hsu Hai LSD (ex-US Navy Anchorage Class), two Ching Ho class LSTs (ex-US Navy Newport Class), and four Yung Yang class mine layers (ex-US Navy Aggressive Class), that round out their major Naval surface vessels. They also have four older diesel/electric submarines that are in strong need of replacement with newer, more modern and capable designs.
They are all indigenous Republic of China (Taiwan) designs and are armed with ROC weapons and sensors.
They are also much smaller ships than the larger frigates and destroyers mentioned above.
Tuo Jiang Class Missile Corvette
This is a very modern, indigenous Taiwan designed and built catamaran missile corvette class.
It is stealthy, heavily armed with anti-surface/shipping missiles, and the most capable home grown and built surface combatant in the ROCN.
The first one was launched in 2014 and commissioned into service in March 215. Twelve vessels are expected to be built.
They displace 500 tons and are armed with sixteen surface to surface missiles. eight supersonic Hsiung Feng III and eight sub-sonic Hsiung Feng II missiles. They are also armed with a 76mm main gun, one Phalanx 20mm CIWS and two, three tube torpedo launchers. They include a landing deck for helicopters, but no hanger. Their landing spaces are meant primarily for Vertical Replenishment (VERTREP) operations.
Ching Chiang Fast Attack Craft
These twelve Fast Attack vessels were built by Taiwan in the late 1990s and early 2000s. They displace 580 tons.
They are armed with four Hsiung Feng I surface to surface missiles, one 40mm/70 AA gun, one 20mm gun, two depth charge racks, and two mine racks. They are meant to operate in groups and patrol Taiwans littoral zones and respond to any danger or threat.
They are meant to provide strong anti-surface response and littoral ASW capabilities, as well as patrol missions against piracy or violations of Taiwan's economic zones.
Kung Hua VI Missile Boats
The Kung Hua missile boats are relative small, fast attack missile boats that displace about 180 tons. There are thirty of these vessels and they were all designed and built in Taiwan between 2007 and 2011.
They are principally armed with four anti-shipping/surface missiles, but also have a single 20mm gun and two 12.7 mm machine guns.
These vessels are designed to operate and groups, from two to four usually, and are meant to prevent aggressive, offensive behavior or attacks by larger surface combatants.from potentially hostile forces.
So, there you have the principal surface combatants of the ROCN.
04 x Kee Lung DDGs (ex-US Navy Kidd Class) 7,300 tons
08 x Ching Kung FFGs (US Navy Oliver Hazard Perry Class) 4.200 tons
06 x Kang Ding FFGs (French La Fayette Class) 3,600 tons
08 x Chi Yang FFGs (ex-US Navy Knox Class 4,250 tons
12 x Tuo Jiang Missile Corvettes 500 tons
12 x Ching Chiang Fast Attack Craft 580 tons
30 x Kung Hua missile boats 180 tons
That's 80 total vessels.
The ROCN also has a single large Hsu Hai LSD (ex-US Navy Anchorage Class), two Ching Ho class LSTs (ex-US Navy Newport Class), and four Yung Yang class mine layers (ex-US Navy Aggressive Class), that round out their major Naval surface vessels. They also have four older diesel/electric submarines that are in strong need of replacement with newer, more modern and capable designs.
Ultra
Junior Member
From what I have read, the F-16 BLK 20 Taiwan received were the actually newly built F-16 C/Ds in disguise. They were fitted with distinct F-16 A/B tails (to look like A/B models) and with some weapon systems turned off, then gave it a new block number 20.
Normally we would expect US just sell Taiwan old and 2nd handed weaponries. Surprisingly, it was not the case with recent sale of Apache AH-64Es to Taiwan. In fact, Taiwan is the first country beside US to receive the newest AH-64Es and currently still the only one outside of US to have the newest AH-64E squadrons. Few weeks ago there was a big scandal about a ROC army colonel brought in his wife's rich friends (including 3-4 foreign maids and 1 Japanese national) to restricted Army maintenance facility to show them AH-64E and gave them access inside of the cockpit and let them wearing the helmet. Because AH-64E is so new, US military asked Taiwan military to guard AH-64E cockpit view as a secret. One of the guests, a TV celebrity, actually posted the cockpit photo on her Facebook, thus had this whole fiasco exploded. The same Army colonel also brought his AH-64E helmet to a Halloween party to show off to kids. More intriguing thing is that Japanese national, who had visited the AH-64E twice, is a formal researcher at Nomura Research Institute (NRI Consulting) in Taiwan. NRI nowadays is a pseudo civilian intelligence gathering arm for the Japanese government since Japan is prohibit by its constitution to have CIA like agency. Some of NRI senior members later became Japanese defense minister or have prominent positions in the Japan Self-Defense Forces.
US actually forbids its allies including Japan and South Korea, or anyone as a matter of fact, to develop nuclear weapons. Israel developed its nuclear weapons in secret.
Yeh I heard about the scandal. Didn't know the Japanese researcher is working for Nomura Research - that's new and I didn't know. And yes AH-64E is ONE EXCEPTION to all this. But its not like Apache is going to matter at all once PRC invades and has air superiority; they have S-300/S-400 and large number of Su-30s the Apaches would be non-issue for them. Like I said before, would US sell Taiwan Burkes and SM-3? Would they sell Taiwan F-35? These are the weapons that would actually matters and allow Taiwan to defend for itself.
Ultra
Junior Member
Horribly I would presume. The Kang Ding class (the french La Fayette-class) frigate is supposedly the best ship ROCN have right now, but because of the antiquated Chaparral SAM system, these ships need to be protected by the old rust bucket Jiyang-class (Knox-class) frigates which is freaking hilarious! Mind you the Kang Dings will be upgraded with Sky Sword II systems starting 2017 (testing next year). But even then I think the Kang Dings are still no match for the Type 052D.
Kang Ding is far from being the best ships.
They look stealthy and do incorporate steath shaping, but those Kee Lung Destroyers (former US Kidd Class) are by far and away the most capable ships the ROCN has...followed by the Cheng Kung (US Oliver Hazard Perry design) frigates.
Those vessels, all of them, are capable multi-role vessels. They each can carry two S-70 ASW helos, they each have eight decent ASMs, they each carry good numbers of Standard missiles...particularly the Kee Lungs, and they each have very strong sensor suites for all of those roles.
Once the Kang Dings get their new missiles for anti-air, they will step up a bit. They already carry eight ASMs, but they are not as strong in ASW as the other two classes.
As to how they would perform against a Type 52D...I would not say horribly at all, particularly the Kee Lung.
The Type 52D certainly has APARs and VLS...but one on one, the Kee Lung will be very highly respected by the PLAN and they will be very wary of them.
We could go into to detail reading such a scenario...but SD is not about war mongering or getting into specific A vs B country scenarios. We have learned over they years that all it does on a forum as diverse as ours is lead to high emotion, argument, and ultimately moderation, warnings and suspensions.
So let's not go there.
Zetageist
Junior Member
True, that Japanese national is presumably the boyfriend of a girl on the Apache tour. He is most likely just tagging along. Currently Japan is operating AH-64D Apache Longbow, while AH-64D Block III is redesignated as AH-64E Guardian in 2012. The Apache service hanger is supposedly to be a restricted area, according to a military personnel inside the Army compound, even he can't enter. The Lt. colonel who brought in the tour group is the son of a retired ROC Army general, who is now working in a civilian company in Mainland China.
Ultra
Junior Member
What I mean is, the Kang Ding class (the french La Fayette-class) is the best offensive combatant the ROCN has - its stealth shaping (supposedly when they were newly built and going back to Taiwan the ROCN sent ships to find it because they can't be seen on the radar) and the recent news of Taiwanese military's recent breakthrough in developing stealth coating () means the La Fayette-class would be a more capable silent assassin in sea (like a Ninja!).
Zetageist
Junior Member
Rail gun tipped to alter nation’s defense abilities
SPEEDY PAYLOAD:US military analyst Rick Fisher said that China would have to think ‘more than twice’ if its leaders were aware of the weapon’s capabilities
By William Lowther / Staff reporter in WASHINGTON
SPEEDY PAYLOAD:US military analyst Rick Fisher said that China would have to think ‘more than twice’ if its leaders were aware of the weapon’s capabilities
By William Lowther / Staff reporter in WASHINGTON