Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Taiwanese navy ships





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Back to bottling my Grenache
Hmmm...those two up front look like Kuang Hua VI-class missile boats.

I thought all 30 of those had been built and commissioned by 2014. Are those new? Or are they just there for the ceremonies for the new, larger Tuo Jian class missile boat and the new Pan-Shi class?

I have to say...I still really like the looks of their new catamaran Missile boat:

Tuo_River_class_corvette.jpg
 
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Ultra

Junior Member
Military funding and capability usually is correlated with a country's economy, population, geography, as well as unique circumstances such as geopolitical position and relations.

I think a bigger trend which many of these so called analysts are missing is that when the PLA's modernization is finally complete and commensurate with the PRC's economy, population, and geography, it will be many times larger and more capable than the ROC military through sheer scale. The scope and depth of capabilities that a fully modernized PLA will yield is something that the ROC military will find immensely difficult to compete with (putting it lightly), without substantially increasing its military funding as a proportion of GDP.

Of course, what ROC does have going for it is that the PLA won't be able to deploy all of its aircraft and ships to a single location during a Taiwan contingency as the PLA has more missions to perform as well, in each of its borders and seas (in the same way that the US can't deploy all of its naval forces and air forces to the western pacific in a westpac contingency due to its string of global commitments).
However I also think it won't be too many years until PLA air forces and naval forces in relative proximity (*) to ROC and will have a clear margin of superiority versus even the entire ROC military on a capability and/or tonnage basis.

(* Oh let's say, elements of SSF and ESF in terms of naval assets, and Guangzhou and Nanjing MRs as primary air force, 2nd artillery and logistics contributors along with some limited redeployment of elements from other MRs in support roles, with primary command from Beijing of course)


PRC's military has always dwarf Taiwan's defence by sheer scale since the beginning. They simply did not have the boats to cross over the strait in the early days that's all. But after the 90s the numerical superiority is just too overwhelming - Taiwan's whole doctrine nowadays is not about defence - it is about "holding out for as long as it can until the US rescue arrives!". China's doctrine on Taiwan is not about defeating the Taiwan's defence force - that is already given - but mostly concentrated on how to defeat the US (and possibly Japan if they want to get involve) forces.

The leadership in Taiwan nowadays have all pretty much gave up on the defence - the KMT has been blocking R&D on military or general military spending as they see it as futile excercise (plus KMT is mostly Pro-China). The DPP knows they can never out-spend China on military spending so they now holds similar view - spending just enough so Taiwan can hold out for the eventual US "rescue", but not more. Taiwan simply cannot afford to fight China on conventional means as Taiwan is forbidden from developing nuclear weapon (it had a covert nuclear weapon program until an insider blew the whistle and escaped to US to tell them all about it which the US government quickly applied pressure for the Taiwanese government to shut it down), Nuclear weapon is the only asymmetrical mean for Taiwan to defend for itself and taking that option away simply means it is pretty much over.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
Good luck paying for it.

With pensions and other social spending increases coming up due to Taiwan's aging population, they'll have to raise taxes to fund any meaningful military increase.

But you can't squeeze more money from the middle and working class, and the rich and corporations have the clout to block any increases at their end.



This article is just calling for Taiwan to increase its defense spending to counter China. But it doesn't look at the economic reality that Taiwan is in. The problem for Taiwan is that its economy is losing competitiveness fast in the world economy. Over the past 15 years Taiwan's share of global trade has shrunk by 30%. Wages on Taiwan hasn't been increasing for more than a decade and the economy today is unable to create enough high paying "middle class" jobs for the young people of Taiwan. This is the result of the fact that Taiwan's economy is being squeezed between China on the one hand and South Korea on the other. On the higher end Taiwan is unable to compete with South Korea on technology and value and on the lower end its unable to compete with China on price. So while at the higher end South Korea is leaving Taiwan further and further behind on the lower end China is gobbling up more and more of her industry. And the reason why this is happening is because Taiwan doesn't invest enough in R&D. Taiwan is in a region with China, Japan and South Korea. Taiwan is economically and physically the smallest in the region. It spends about 3% of GDP on R&D while Japan spends about 3,7% of GDP on R&D and South Korea even spends more than 4%. China spends about 2% of GDP on R&D. Taiwan being much smaller than the others need to spend a higher percentage of its GDP just to keep up with the rest. But it isn't doing so and now they are falling further and further behind in the region. On top of that Taiwan with a population about 58 times smaller than China is also aging faster. Taiwan at the moment is able to sell 40% of her wares to China with favorable market access conditions and recieves about 3 million mainland tourist a year to help them goose up their economy. Taiwan economically is almost completely dependent on China. At this point the danger of Taiwan becoming a economic vassal of China is much more real than any possible invasion. And that is really the issue that the Taiwanese leaders need to adress. The loss of economic competitiveness is perhabs a bigger danger than military inbalance and war. Because on the current path war is a possibility but economic vassalship is a certainty. And as Taiwan looses more and more of her industry to China that also diminishes her ability to defend herself in the future. Taiwan should spend more on R&D to stretch the lead it has over China for as long as possible rather than more on military hardware. Its also something I believe we should do in Europe and America. Because our hi tech and heavy industries are loosing their competitiveness to China too.


Pretty spot-on assessment. At this time Taiwan IS ALREADY an economic vassal of China. All the large corporations (Foxconn for example) in Taiwan had moved to China and the CEOs are now pretty much working for the PRC as their mouthpiece. Their assets are all tied up there so they all toe the party line over there. There is over a million Taiwanese businesses/businessmen over there so majority of Taiwan's economy is pretty much tied up in China.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
Also, America never seem to take Taiwan seriously. Taiwan never get the weapon it wanted for it to defend itself - when South Korea asked for F-16 american sold them not only the planes but also allow them to build it in Korea. When Taiwan asked for the same they were rebuffed and Taiwan had to start developing its own F-16 equivalent (the AIDC F-CK-1) and only after Taiwan started making these F-16 equivalent did america agree to start selling them the OLD F-16 (F-16 A/B only). When Korea or Japan asked for warship Washington is more than happy to sell them their top-end Arleigh Burke-class destroyer with full ToT to be build at their own home country. When Taiwan wants to buy warship Taiwan only get second hand (!) over priced last generation retired rust bucket known as Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates.

Not to mention America is now offering Japan and South Korea F-35s. Would Washington ever offer Taiwan F-35s? Not likely, at least not in my life time! When Washington finally decide to sell the F-35, it would be 2115 when they decide to sell them and probably trying to selling the second hand retired crap for 3 times the price. That only will happen if Taiwan is still a country at that time which is freaking unlikely. Taiwan as an independent nation won't last another 2 decades IMO.

All these is what contributed to the hopelessness in Taiwan's military and political circle. If America is actually serious about Taiwan, they would give what they gave Japan or South Korea - actually brand new top-end weapons and allow Taiwan to manufacture them, plus closer military collaborations and cross-training. If not, at least allow Taiwan to develop nuclear weapon.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Ultra, you are delving far too much into the politics about this.

SD is not about politics...so please keep your comments focused on the military details and issues without delving into the politics.,

Politics are like tail bones (hear in the US we would use a different term...but we have rules against it).

Everyone has one.

Everyone has a view on politics. If you want to argue/discuss/debate those...got to another forum.

Having myself spent significant amounts of time in Taiwan on business in the past...I can tell you that the people there feel that they are independent and working on their own. I know many people in their military and they are squared away and willing to fight for their island. They are not "hopeless" or "demoralized," as some would like to think.

Ultimately, Taiwan will be reunited with China. The current PRC government is being very wise in their move towards that. Economically, tourism, softening relations, etc. all will move to that goal.

My hope is that that continues and that talk and sentiments that are in the face of the Taiwan people are held at bay by the PRC so those things can happen naturally. The surest way to delay it...or to move it towards hostilities is to try and force it.

So...having said all of that, let's focus on the Military and Defense details, technologies, capabilities, specifications, and military strategies without bringing politics into it.

Thanks.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Ultra, you are delving far too much into the politics about this.

SD is not about politics...so please keep your comments focused on the military details and issues without delving into the politics.,

Politics are like tail bones (hear in the US we would use a different term...but we have rules against it).

Everyone has one.

Everyone has a view on politics. If you want to argue/discuss/debate those...got to another forum.

Having myself spent significant amounts of time in Taiwan on business in the past...I can tell you that the people there feel that they are independent and working on their own. I know many people in their military and they are squared away and willing to fight for their island. They are not "hopeless" or "demoralized," as some would like to think.

Ultimately, Taiwan will be reunited with China. The current PRC government is being very wise in their move towards that. Economically, tourism, softening relations, etc. all will move to that goal.

My hope is that that continues and that talk and sentiments that are in the face of the Taiwan people are held at bay by the PRC so those things can happen naturally. The surest way to delay it...or to move it towards hostilities is to try and force it.

So...having said all of that, let's focus on the Military and Defense details, technologies, capabilities, specifications, and military strategies without bringing politics into it.

Thanks.

The political discussion regarding Taiwan in this sense ends here.

Any more will simply be deleted...including the posts up to this point.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
Ultra, you are delving far too much into the politics about this.

SD is not about politics...so please keep your comments focused on the military details and issues without delving into the politics.,

Politics are like tail bones (hear in the US we would use a different term...but we have rules against it).

Everyone has one.

Everyone has a view on politics. If you want to argue/discuss/debate those...got to another forum.

Having myself spent significant amounts of time in Taiwan on business in the past...I can tell you that the people there feel that they are independent and working on their own. I know many people in their military and they are squared away and willing to fight for their island. They are not "hopeless" or "demoralized," as some would like to think.

Ultimately, Taiwan will be reunited with China. The current PRC government is being very wise in their move towards that. Economically, tourism, softening relations, etc. all will move to that goal.

My hope is that that continues and that talk and sentiments that are in the face of the Taiwan people are held at bay by the PRC so those things can happen naturally. The surest way to delay it...or to move it towards hostilities is to try and force it.

So...having said all of that, let's focus on the Military and Defense details, technologies, capabilities, specifications, and military strategies without bringing politics into it.

Thanks.


No problem Jeff. Message received! I will stay out of the politics.
 

Zetageist

Junior Member
When Taiwan asked for the same they were rebuffed and Taiwan had to start developing its own F-16 equivalent (the AIDC F-CK-1) and only after Taiwan started making these F-16 equivalent did america agree to start selling them the OLD F-16 (F-16 A/B only).

From what I have read, the F-16 BLK 20 Taiwan received were the actually newly built F-16 C/Ds in disguise. They were fitted with distinct F-16 A/B tails (to look like A/B models) and with some weapon systems turned off, then gave it a new block number 20.

Not to mention America is now offering Japan and South Korea F-35s. Would Washington ever offer Taiwan F-35s? Not likely, at least not in my life time! When Washington finally decide to sell the F-35, it would be 2115 when they decide to sell them and probably trying to selling the second hand retired crap for 3 times the price.

Normally we would expect US just sell Taiwan old and 2nd handed weaponries. Surprisingly, it was not the case with recent sale of Apache AH-64Es to Taiwan. In fact, Taiwan is the first country beside US to receive the newest AH-64Es and currently still the only one outside of US to have the newest AH-64E squadrons. Few weeks ago there was a big scandal about a ROC army colonel brought in his wife's rich friends (including 3-4 foreign maids and 1 Japanese national) to restricted Army maintenance facility to show them AH-64E and gave them access inside of the cockpit and let them wearing the helmet. Because AH-64E is so new, US military asked Taiwan military to guard AH-64E cockpit view as a secret. One of the guests, a TV celebrity, actually posted the cockpit photo on her Facebook, thus had this whole fiasco exploded. The same Army colonel also brought his AH-64E helmet to a Halloween party to show off to kids. More intriguing thing is that Japanese national, who had visited the AH-64E twice, is a formal researcher at Nomura Research Institute (NRI Consulting) in Taiwan. NRI nowadays is a pseudo civilian intelligence gathering arm for the Japanese government since Japan is prohibit by its constitution to have CIA like agency. Some of NRI senior members later became Japanese defense minister or have prominent positions in the Japan Self-Defense Forces.

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All these is what contributed to the hopelessness in Taiwan's military and political circle. If America is actually serious about Taiwan, they would give what they gave Japan or South Korea - actually brand new top-end weapons and allow Taiwan to manufacture them, plus closer military collaborations and cross-training. If not, at least allow Taiwan to develop nuclear weapon.

US actually forbids its allies including Japan and South Korea, or anyone as a matter of fact, to develop nuclear weapons. Israel developed its nuclear weapons in secret.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
More intriguing thing is that Japanese national, who had visited the AH-64E twice, is a formal researcher at Nomura Research Institute (NRI Consulting) in Taiwan. NRI nowadays is a pseudo civilian intelligence gathering arm for the Japanese government since Japan is prohibit by its constitution to have CIA like agency. Some of NRI senior members later became Japanese defense minister or have prominent positions in the Japan Self-Defense Forces.

.

The Japanese national probably just likes to play tourist. Japan can just easily go to Boeing for any info on the AH-64E, and as you've noted, everyone and their dog can drop by and take a gander at the Longbow Apaches (at least until recently).
 
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