Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

thunderchief

Senior Member
The idea would be to use them should the PLA attempt to establish that beachhead. Just because they start an amphibious assault does not mean it will be successful.

Of course, the best way to keep it from being successful is to try and make sure they never get that far.

But, should they get that far and start sending troops in, then the next step is to defeat them on or near the beach and prevent a breakout. That has happened before. The Gallipoli landings in World War I, the 1st Japanese attempt on Wake Island in 1941, the Dieppe landing in 1942. In addition, there were some close calls like Utah Beach and Tarawa Island.

So, I believe the Taiwan forces would try to use the Apaches and other forces to try and get the landings to fail and keep a beachhead from being secured.

Let's hope we never have to find out if they would be successful.


Well , theoretically Taiwan could use Apaches to fire Hellfire missiles on incoming Chinese landing craft . But giving Hellfire range below 10 km , those helicopters will be in forward engagement zone , full of SAMs on PLAN ships and PLAAF aircraft covering the landings . IMHO , if they want to stop PLA on beaches , money could be better spent on fortifying possible landing points ( land&sea mines , obstacles , strong points , decoys and false targets ... )
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
The idea would be to use them should the PLA attempt to establish that beachhead. Just because they start an amphibious assault does not mean it will be successful.

Of course, the best way to keep it from being successful is to try and make sure they never get that far.

But, should they get that far and start sending troops in, then the next step is to defeat them on or near the beach and prevent a breakout. That has happened before. The Gallipoli landings in World War I, the 1st Japanese attempt on Wake Island in 1941, the Dieppe landing in 1942. In addition, there were some close calls like Utah Beach and Tarawa Island.

So, I believe the Taiwan forces would try to use the Apaches and other forces to try and get the landings to fail and keep a beachhead from being secured.

Let's hope we never have to find out if they would be successful.

yup, l pray that event never becomes a reality also.. however just for discussion sake if the Apaches are being used to engaged PLAN amphibious landings or Marines already on the beach it means that PLAN/PLAAF etc have either failed or did not have complete air superiority which would be a huge tactical mistake. It also means the Apache's base is still functioning and they too have fail to complete destroy the airbases through saturated missile strikes or other assets in the initiial wave.

Personally I don't think PLAN will land a single Marine on the beach until they are relatively secure. There would be no surprise D-Day type landings. In this day and age it's almost impossible to land a massive force on a beach undected unless you're doing it in some 3rd world or very low tech countries.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
For the sake of argument, what about the PLA airborne and special forces units that can be send in either HALO or HAHO jumps to the sea near the beach or even if possible to Taiwan air bases to destroy and disrupt the runway, hangars, and communications towers as well? The US Army Rangers were specialized to do this (taking over enemy air base). I believe the PLA will be practicing this more efficiently once the Y-20 are put to production mode.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
For the sake of argument, what about the PLA airborne and special forces units that can be send in either HALO or HAHO jumps to the sea near the beach or even if possible to Taiwan air bases to destroy and disrupt the runway, hangars, and communications towers as well? The US Army Rangers were specialized to do this (taking over enemy air base). I believe the PLA will be practicing this more efficiently once the Y-20 are put to production mode.

Frankly , I don't think PLA would organize any high altitude jumps (HAHO or HALO ) over Taiwan . Simply saying , SAM threat is too high and if and when you eliminate SAMs very reasons for parachute insertion of SF would be gone . ;)

Instead , you could expect SF insertion by helicopters (flying in radar shadow) and by boats . Troops inserted in this way will not be dispersed and could fight immediately - unlike paratroopers .
 

Franklin

Captain
The US has sold to Taiwan 32 block II UGM-84L sub launched Harpoon missile's and its associated systems. Those will be retrofitted on to the 2 Hai Lung (Zwaardvis) class submarines of the ROCN. The deliveries started this year and all deliveries will be complete in 2016.

Taiwan Acquires Submarine-Launched Anti-Ship Missiles

Taiwan announced this week that the U.S. has begun delivering UGM-84L sub-launched Harpoon Block II missiles.

The United States began delivering submarine-launched anti-ship missiles to Taiwan this year, according to a new report released by Taiwan’s Ministry of National Defense (MND).

This week the MND delivered a report on U.S.-Taiwanese defense cooperation to the Legislature’s Foreign Affairs and National Defense Committee. According to local media, one of the revelations from the report was that the U.S. began delivering UGM-84L sub-launched Harpoon Block II missiles to Taiwan in 2013.

The U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency first notified Congress of a potential deal to sell Taipei the missiles in 2008. Under the terms of the deal, the U.S. will sell Taiwan 32 UGM-84L Sub-Launched Harpoon Block II missiles and 2 UTM-84L Harpoon Block II Exercise missiles for $195.46 million. All of the missiles and support equipment are scheduled to be delivered by 2016.

According to the report, Taiwan will equip its Dutch-built Hai Lung-class submarines with the HARPOON Block II anti-ship missiles.

Focus Taiwan reported that the missiles have a range of about 125 km, which would allow them to reach China’s coasts. This indicates they will be used to try and thwart an amphibious invasion of Taiwan by targeting ships while they are still close to port.

The Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles are ideally suited for this mission, according to Boeing, which manufactures the Harpoon missile. To begin with, the Block II version of the Harpoon was equipped with upgrades designed to increase its ability to operate in contested areas. Additionally, Boeing’s official description of the Harpoon Block II states that the anti-ship variants’ Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation System “improves midcourse guidance to the target area. The accurate navigation solution allows users to discriminate target ships from islands or other nearby land masses or ships. These Block II improvements maintain Harpoon’s high hit probability even against ships very close to land.”

Taiwan already possesses air and surface-launched Harpoon missiles. However, this acquisition allows Taiwan to operate anti-ship missiles using the more survivable submarines. The overwhelming majority of anti-ship missiles have been launched from aircraft and/surface ships. Some of the few other anti-ship missiles that can be operated from submarines include the French-built Exocet and a variant of the BGM-109 Tomahawk. This year India successfully test fired a BRAHMOS supersonic cruise missile from a submarine.

The Federation of Atomic Scientists’ explain the procedure used in the sub-launched Harpoons as follows:

“The submarine Harpoon is contained within a capsule and is called ENCAP for encapsulated. The ENCAP is the same size and general shape of a blunt nosed torpedo and is launched from submarine torpedo tubes. It has positive buoyancy (it floats), so when it is ejected from the submarine, it will rise to the surface, without power. The ENCAP consists of a nosecap, main body and afterbody. The missile is on shock isolator rails within the main body. The afterbody has fins which direct the ENCAP towards the surface at the proper angle for missile launch. Once the ENCAP breaches the surface, the nosecap is blown off by a small rocket and the missile is launched.”

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thunderchief

Senior Member
The US has sold to Taiwan 32 block II UGM-84L sub launched Harpoon missile's and its associated systems. Those will be retrofitted on to the 2 Hai Lung (Hai Lung) class submarines of the ROCN. The deliveries started this year and all deliveries will be complete in 2016.

Interesting capability , but could they use them effectively in war against China ? Hai Lung(Zwaardvis) class is a bit old now . Submarines are relatively quiet , but sensors are obsolete . Zwaardvis-class was designed to use torpedoes in coastal waters , not to detect ships sailing far away and determine firing solution for Harpoons . Of course , they could get position of enemy ships from aerial reconnaissance platforms (like P-3 Orion Taiwan intends to buy ) but it is doubtful Taiwan could operate those in war against China .
 

Skywatcher

Captain
Interesting capability , but could they use them effectively in war against China ? Hai Lung(Zwaardvis) class is a bit old now . Submarines are relatively quiet , but sensors are obsolete . Zwaardvis-class was designed to use torpedoes in coastal waters , not to detect ships sailing far away and determine firing solution for Harpoons . Of course , they could get position of enemy ships from aerial reconnaissance platforms (like P-3 Orion Taiwan intends to buy ) but it is doubtful Taiwan could operate those in war against China .

Transmitting data to the Hai Lung submarines would also give Chinese ASW forces pointers from the SIGINT.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
But I think this purchase of sub harpoons is one of the more sensible purchase the ROCN could have made.

New submarines look like a pipe dream ATM so sub launched ASHMs are one way to extend their small sub surface capability.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Transmitting data to the Hai Lung submarines would also give Chinese ASW forces pointers from the SIGINT.

Not necessarily if it is one-way transmission ( we detected ship A at coordinates X,Y ... ) Even if Chinese decode message they won"t know exact position of the sub if it stays silent .

But I think this purchase of sub harpoons is one of the more sensible purchase the ROCN could have made.

New submarines look like a pipe dream ATM so sub launched ASHMs are one way to extend their small sub surface capability.

I always wandered why Taiwan cannot build their own subs . They don't have to be state-of-the-art , just good enough to endanger Chinese traffic .
 
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