Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

MwRYum

Major
You do realise that just because there are leadership changes in Beijing does not mean China suddenly forget everything that happened before the change-overs right?

The scheduled changes are not set in stone, and Chinese leaders do not go and hide in a cave and cut themselves off from the rest of the world after they hand over power. If there is a sudden diplomatic crisis that develops during the Beijing leadership change over, the hand off of powers could be temporarily suspended while China deals with the sudden crisis, or the old leaders could stay on as advisors to help the new ones handle the crisis.

In addition, it is perfectly possible that the new incoming Chinese leaders would take personal offence if it looks obvious that someone had tried to take advantage of their leadership transition, and indeed, a new leader may well want to act tougher than usual in their first leadership challenge as a means of establishing themselves with their new colleges, the Chinese people and international leaders.

All in all, banking on China somehow being too wrapped up in leadership changes to allow something as massive as this slip between the cracks is laughable at best.

It doesn't make sense and will simply never happen like that.

In fact, as I have alluded to above, the Chinese leadership change is probably one of the worst possible times for Germany to announce something like this.

With the way the EU economy is doing, and the fact that orders from China is one of the few things keeping the German economy from suffering as much as most of it's fellow EU members, well, German will have to be absolutely idiotic to risk all that over a few billions of arms sales. Hell, even if we discount the likely cost, it's a terrible time to make any bet since China's new leaders are a complete unknown quantity to the west, and so there is simply no reasonable way to predict how they might react to something like this.

So not only would Germany be making a giant wager, it will be doing so effectively blind. Clearly that is simply a ridiculous suggestion when you realise what it means.

If the Euros are so desperate for arms sales, a far far more lucrative and less risky way would be simply for them to scrap their arms embargo against China.

If only China proved they'd respond to provocations in kind instead of merely paying lips service as we've since all these times, plus the "stability-first-and-foremost, least change the better" policy, who couldn't arrive at the conclusion that China would simply swallow its pride once more on this? Well, except the "angry-youths" I reckon...

The West, or at this case, the Germans, are playing a risky game here, though of a calculated one.

Lifting arms embargo to China have been on the pipeline of France and Germany for some time, but Americans won't have it any other way...so all the American have to do is to rein in some pro-US EU member states, and it'd guarantee such motion won't pass through the EU Assembly, which pass things by consensus not by majority votes.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
If only China proved they'd respond to provocations in kind instead of merely paying lips service as we've since all these times, plus the "stability-first-and-foremost, least change the better" policy, who couldn't arrive at the conclusion that China would simply swallow its pride once more on this? Well, except the "angry-youths" I reckon...

The West, or at this case, the Germans, are playing a risky game here, though of a calculated one.

I very much doubt China would only pay lip service if it was a country like germany (much smaller than the US, and therefore more susceptible to pressure) who was selling those kind of equipments to taiwan.

But you must at least admit the idea that china will somehow let something like this slip just because of a leadership change, is a ridiculous idea surely? If it's a calculated game, the germans are calculating it quite wrong.

... Nor would I believe the germans themselves would play such a risky game just for a few billion dollars when potentially they could force a massive chinese response. However, if we start to ponder whether the US could be acting through germany more interesting questions arise; although again the chances of that are even smaller.

The main point is that a chinese leadership change will have little to no difference to a chinese response on a sub sale to taiwan compared to if it was not in the middle of a leadership change. K?
 

MwRYum

Major
I very much doubt China would only pay lip service if it was a country like germany (much smaller than the US, and therefore more susceptible to pressure) who was selling those kind of equipments to taiwan.

But you must at least admit the idea that china will somehow let something like this slip just because of a leadership change, is a ridiculous idea surely? If it's a calculated game, the germans are calculating it quite wrong.

... Nor would I believe the germans themselves would play such a risky game just for a few billion dollars when potentially they could force a massive chinese response. However, if we start to ponder whether the US could be acting through germany more interesting questions arise; although again the chances of that are even smaller.

The main point is that a chinese leadership change will have little to no difference to a chinese response on a sub sale to taiwan compared to if it was not in the middle of a leadership change. K?

Look, China have been paying lip services to just about every incursions and insults being thrown at them, and just about who did China successfully made them yield?

If America have a hand in all this, it might make sense because this is election year, and by the unyielding tradition anything that's equivalent to dung-slinging at China's face looks good at the opinion pools, and might even translate into positive effect at the ballot.

And what if the Chinese leadership made the assumption that Germany won't risk it and rather let such a deal fell through, and instead keep shaking the Greek to pay up one way or the other? Somehow, the current German leadership isn't known to be China friendly anyway...
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
If America have a hand in all this, it might make sense because this is election year, and by the unyielding tradition anything that's equivalent to dung-slinging at China's face looks good at the opinion pools, and might even translate into positive effect at the ballot.

If america did have a hand in all this and revealed it was themselves for obama to be reelected... there will be a massive sh*t fest, so massive it won't be funny.

And what if the Chinese leadership made the assumption that Germany won't risk it and rather let such a deal fell through, and instead keep shaking the Greek to pay up one way or the other? Somehow, the current German leadership isn't known to be China friendly anyway...

I don't understand. Whether the PRC responds to the sale or not depends whether the sale goes through or not. If it falls through then the consequences will be far less severe than if it was successful. For instance they'll still protest, but because the subs weren't sold either through disagreements, or germany retracting them with acknowledgement to china's protests, the PRC won't act against germany economically or politically.
(An equation will explain it: Response from PRC :proportional: to size of country selling weapons x potency of weapons they sell + a constant where the PRC will always protest. So if no subs are sold the PRC will still protest but will likely be their only response)
 

delft

Brigadier
In the time of the Taiwanese dictator Chiang Ching-kuo the Dutch company RDM sold two submarines to Taiwan. The reaction of PRC was so sharp that the Dutch government lost any appetite to allow the sale of another four submarines and the Netherlands are now unable to build such boats. At the time the nominal GDP of China was of the same size as that of the Netherlands. Germany is well aware of this episode and will not be tempted to do anything foolish.
 

cptplt

Junior Member
Germany, Spain (that was one nation Bush II was hoping would supply the subs) or whoever will not sell the subs to Taiwan, they will sell them to the US or licence a US builder.

Characterizing CCK as a "dictator" is a disservice to the one politician who did more than any other in bringing about multiparty democracy to the ROC.

As I have said before I would bet good money DCN will settle the latest suit By Taiwan against the Lafayette contractors by providing services in kind - like a sub design- rather than fork out over half a billion like Thales and the French government had to!
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
As I have said before I would bet good money DCN will settle the latest suit By Taiwan against the Lafayette contractors by providing services in kind - like a sub design- rather than fork out over half a billion like Thales and the French government had to!

What a company wants to do and what it can do are not always the same thing, and especially so when it comes to international arms sales.

DCN can wet dream all they like about some kind of under the table deal to save themselves from the consequences of their own actions, but it will never be allowed to happen.

Any such transfers of highly sensitive military technology would need government approval, so we are right back to the respective national governments shutting any such deal down as soon as it is suggested.

If a company supplied highly advanced and classified military tech to a foreign power without proper approval, money is going to be the least of the company's problems. At best they will get slapped with a fine that will make that half a billion look like pocket change, and it would not be a stretch to imagine the company being shut down, or at least broken up and sold off and the board sent to prison for treason.

Licensing the designs to a third party is even more of a non-starter. The costs associated with setting up SSK production would be massive, so it's a forgone conclusion that the shipyard that takes the contract is not going to stop at 8 boats, and will be offering their new SSKs to whoever can afford them. The French will have to be stupid to shoot themselves in the foot like that to establish a powerful new competitor.

In addition, China is not stupid, and if the French did such a transparent ploy as licensing their designs off to someone else to sell to Taiwan, they will get slapped with the same kind of sanctions and retaliatory action as if they sold the boats to Taiwan themselves.

This is not some hollywood legal show where anyone has to prove anything. If China has feels like the French were behind a sub deal, they will respond, and no legal origami is going to get the French out of that mess.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
In the time of the Taiwanese dictator Chiang Ching-kuo the Dutch company RDM sold two submarines to Taiwan. The reaction of PRC was so sharp that the Dutch government lost any appetite to allow the sale of another four submarines and the Netherlands are now unable to build such boats. At the time the nominal GDP of China was of the same size as that of the Netherlands. Germany is well aware of this episode and will not be tempted to do anything foolish.

The Netherlands wasn't (and still isn't) a particularly tough country. It could see where China was going to go, and doubtlessly hoped that it could get more from China in the long-run. There was talk of China buying other Dutch goods to make up the loss of further sales to Taiwan, but in the end they never materialised (strangely enough). It's arguable that China would have done anything drastic, and I doubt they would now.

Characterizing CCK as a "dictator" is a disservice to the one politician who did more than any other in bringing about multiparty democracy to the ROC.

Saying "more than" is going a bit far. He ended martial law, but it wasn't until Lee was in power in 1991 that the "temporary" anti-Communist laws and their anti-democratic effects were ended.
 

cptplt

Junior Member
This is not some hollywood legal show where anyone has to prove anything. If China has feels like the French were behind a sub deal, they will respond, and no legal origami is going to get the French out of that mess.

what are they going to do this time, close two consulates rather than one like they did 20 years ago? Beijing is already "sanctioning" EU with the ETS issue and holds on Airbus orders, are they going to buy more Boeings while US still sells weapons to ROC? The present leadership in Beijing are not tough like the old guard from several decades ago. Business will go on as usual.

---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------

amraam issues

so now we know exactly how many amraams in inventory

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MwRYum

Major
what are they going to do this time, close two consulates rather than one like they did 20 years ago? Beijing is already "sanctioning" EU with the ETS issue and holds on Airbus orders, are they going to buy more Boeings while US still sells weapons to ROC? The present leadership in Beijing are not tough like the old guard from several decades ago. Business will go on as usual.

---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------

amraam issues

so now we know exactly how many amraams in inventory

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Some says at the time of transition, the Chinese leadership is likely to play delaying action until the change-of-guard complete at the end of this year, so let's see how things go from thereon. Also, an interesting note is that the upcoming leadership is more pro-West than before...

As for the AMRAAM issue, it's going to be the typical problem encountered at the service centers, but in a much bigger scale of course - it's as much as who really drop the ball (ROCAF personnel slipped in their maintenance? Or genuine product defects?) and how much both side would stick to their guns...
 
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