Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Mr T said:

I don't see any crippling sanctions imposed on the US over the years despite all the arms sales it has made to Taiwan. China's bark is worse than its bite.



Taiwan would have no possible reason to do that. The US doesn't want diesel-electric submarine designs and Taiwan wouldn't try to destroy a new relationship with a country that sold it arms.

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France giving the blueprints for the Agosta means that the US now has a ready made source for SSK design data (France can't be sure that the US wouldn't make SSK designs as a way to earn extra export cash and project influence, now that the USN might be cutting back on ship orders). At the end of the day, the RoC cares only about favor with America, not about France (guess why).

Yes, the PRC *might* not risk economic relations with Europe (and that's assuming there's only the option of letting Paris sell to RoC scott free or collapsing the Eurozone. Plenty of other ways to harass France). But in this current situation with France possibly losing its AAA rating, does Paris really want to risk everything for a few measly billion Euros?

Skywatcher said:

France giving the blueprints for the Agosta means that the US now has a ready made source for SSK design data (France can't be sure that the US wouldn't make SSK designs as a way to earn extra export cash and project influence, now that the USN might be cutting back on ship orders).

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The US does not build diesel-electric submarines and has no plans to do so. The biggest reason the US plan for Taiwan failed was the resistance from within America at making conventional submarines (e.g. the USN), not Chinese opposition. I don't see that changing any time soon.

And projecting influence through submarine sales - what on earth are you going on about?

But in this current situation with France possibly losing its AAA rating, does Paris really want to risk everything for a few measly billion Euros?

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I have absolutely no idea. We shall see if France or anyone else assists Taiwan in building submarines.

Mr T said:

The US does not build diesel-electric submarines and has no plans to do so. The biggest reason the US plan for Taiwan failed was the resistance from within America at making conventional submarines (e.g. the USN), not Chinese opposition. I don't see that changing any time soon.

And projecting influence through submarine sales - what on earth are you going on about?

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The US doesn't build SSKs because it doesn't have the knowledge base, and to do so would have taken resources away from the SSN program. But given access to the whole range of data for a working SSK, that option would suddenly seem very attractive to defense contractors like Northrop Grumman and BAE.

Now the US would benefit from SSK exports as a way to maintain influence in the Middle East and Latin America (they don't have to be top of the line like the German boats, buying them would in effect be buying a relationship with the USN in many respects) and get a bit of spare cash. That's a factor that DCN can't ignore (would be far smarter to ask for a bank loan or bail out to pay for the several hundred million in the new Lafayette case than take this risk).

If the US sold Taiwan whatever it wanted (within reason), maybe you're right that they would supply it with information even if it harmed military ties with other countries. But the US has shown that it can be swayed by pressure from China. Even though the US will doubtlessly continue to sell arms, it's not as reliable as it used to be. Taiwan knows this, why is why it would cherish co-operation with other countries and not sell them short.

More importantly, if the US wanted modern diesel-electric designs that badly they'd have leaned on South Korea years ago for the Type 214 specs.

Mr T said:

If the US sold Taiwan whatever it wanted (within reason), maybe you're right that they would supply it with information even if it harmed military ties with other countries. But the US has shown that it can be swayed by pressure from China. Even though the US will doubtlessly continue to sell arms, it's not as reliable as it used to be. Taiwan knows this, why is why it would cherish co-operation with other countries and not sell them short.

More importantly, if the US wanted modern diesel-electric designs that badly they'd have leaned on South Korea years ago for the Type 214 specs.

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At the end of the day, Taiwan will care only about what the US and US defense contractors think, and not France (the USN has carriers in the Asia Pacific, France doesn't. The US wins out by the simple virtue of having boots on the ground, a capability that France can never match. Hence Taiwan has every motivation to "sell France short").

The US has far more leverage over Taiwan compared to South Korea (not to mention that South Korea is in the export market, Taiwan isn't).

Mr T said:

If the US sold Taiwan whatever it wanted (within reason), maybe you're right that they would supply it with information even if it harmed military ties with other countries. But the US has shown that it can be swayed by pressure from China. Even though the US will doubtlessly continue to sell arms, it's not as reliable as it used to be. Taiwan knows this, why is why it would cherish co-operation with other countries and not sell them short.

More importantly, if the US wanted modern diesel-electric designs that badly they'd have leaned on South Korea years ago for the Type 214 specs.

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given the opportunity US will want acquire the design for diesel sub. its not about building it or not. I've seen many products that US don't use but reverse engineering anyway to understand, counter, and for knoweledge base purpose.

US shipyards getting a Euro SSK design is not an issue. The Germans were going to let Ingalls build for the Egyptians and Israelis in the US till 1. the Egyptians had no US military aid left over for the program, 2. Bonn could absolve its "debt" to Tel Aviv better by building at home.
Anything TW gets will need US weapons systems/sensors so you can be sure a US shipyard will be involved. All the plans in the first few years after Bush said he would sell subs depended on a US shipyard building a Euro design and GD and Ingalls had Euro partners lined up.

cptplt said:

US shipyards getting a Euro SSK design is not an issue. The Germans were going to let Ingalls build for the Egyptians and Israelis in the US till 1. the Egyptians had no US military aid left over for the program, 2. Bonn could absolve its "debt" to Tel Aviv better by building at home.
Anything TW gets will need US weapons systems/sensors so you can be sure a US shipyard will be involved. All the plans in the first few years after Bush said he would sell subs depended on a US shipyard building a Euro design and GD and Ingalls had Euro partners lined up.

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The French aren't going to tolerate American input and hands on experience with their design (which would be even more severe than those examples happen if DCN just handed the IPR over to Taiwan like that).

Skywatcher said:

The French aren't going to tolerate American input and hands on experience with their design (which would be even more severe than those examples happen if DCN just handed the IPR over to Taiwan like that).

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But they would tolerate the Spanish doing the same, giving something to the US, with what is essentially a French design??

The biggest threat to a Taiwanese Diesel sub built in US is the US Navy.



the nuclear submarine folks would not let it happen, not in this fiscal climate. les congress get the idea that these things are 1) Much Much Cheaper than a big nuclear sub 2) slightly less effective but good enough on paper for Littoral. 3) somebody too smart in congress gets a ah-ha moment and mandate the shipyard in their district would save USN some real money by building the diesel subs in their district.

The Foreign Ministry of People's Republic of China would do the rest by kindly remind Germany and France how much commercial stake they have in china and who knows what will happen if their subs wound up in hands of ROCN.