Syria Shoots Down Turkish Fighter Jet

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Ok I misunderstood your post

Iraq the situation died down after the Iraqi people were fed up with the conitnued violence and decided to do something about it and Vietnam and Afghanistan contains guerilla warfare which requires foreign supply and training

In Syria there is just weapons and money coming in from sporadic sources there is nothing organised that could withstand a modern military force and they only have one entrance and exit point, and that is the Iraqi border which in turn relys on Iran

Without external interference the war inside will go on and on, the international community must come together to resolve the Syrian situation and the Arab league is certainly not be of them, neither is any Western nation and no Muslim country's have a united force which can be deployed so that really only leaves Turkey

And all the while Syria tears itself apart Israel is sitting watching it is happy session for them right now

When I said Vietnam and Iraq, I was not comparing the strategic situation of those 2 wars, I am talking about fighting a determined foe, armed with low tech weapons that bland in with the civilian population that bleed the opposing force dry.

As for Syria, it is no longer a civil war anymore, the rebels are now full of Islam extremists that would not care a bit for the Syrian people, or establish a western democratic nation after the government falls, those are the same people that US supported to defeat the Soviet union which bite them back, and now they are arming those people to take down the Syrian government.

No matter if they take down the government or not, one thing for those, those people will be well armed to cause problems in the region, they have no loyalty to a government, or a race, their loyalty is to their twisted ideas, and this is something that cannot be solved with logic. And yes, NATO and Turkey is arming them.

No international community or Arab league will stop this force, best way is to contain it, like Assad have done for many years.
 

no_name

Colonel
The Islamic extremest/terrorists will always flock to and hid in the countries with the worst stabilities. They are opportunists. It's a virus that invades you when your health is down.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
You are mistaken, Salafism has strong roots in all these countries because of the high moral appeal that is often throughly lacking among the perceptions of secular elites. What you call Islamic extremists are totalitarian people who pursue the minor djihad with utmost vigour, often at the expense of the major djihad within. That's why in non-news professional discussions the term Djihadists is often used. Like all totalitarian people before they are enamoured with achieving the uncompromised fulfillment of their idea. Anywhere with a chance to enforce one's will without compromise do they see a chance for this, usually armed with a gun as most convincing argument. Their glorified acts of violence in turn inspire more people at home who have a high likelyhood of
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(see German intelligence publications, "Beiträge zur Inneren Sicherheit") and are thus easy to manipulate into schemes of grandeur.
From a strategic point of view, the Syrian bloodshed is an excellent retreat action to relieve international Djihadist pressure on Afghanistan, where the US pays with their own blood. For this goal it is necessary to have a long, bloody and indecisive fighting in Syria. As Iraq showed before, such actions are esily capable of alienating many people from the fighting Salafists because they have a different emphasis of needs and the Djihadist violence with their organizational inability, often due to their uncompromising nature, endangers core requirements like economic welfare and medical services.
 
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Turkey really shoot their own foot in this, of course US and Europe want to mess up the Middle East for their own interest, it was Turkey's fault that they didn't examine the consequence closer, because when all said and done, the mess is in Turkey's own backyard, even if the Syrian government fall or not, there will be a bunch of Islamic dudes fully armed courtesy of US, Europe and Turkey. Epic faceplam for Turkey.

US and Europe can just pull out anytime they want if things are not going according to plan, aka Iraq, Afghanistan 1980s and NOW.

You reap what you sow, I have no tears for Turkey whatsoever, you reap what you sow.

The Turkish leadership's actions regarding the Syrian crisis shows that they suffer from delusions of grandeur about Turkey's role in the Middle East, thereby behaving like a perfect pawn in the interests of Western European ex-colonial powers and their default heir the US.

The US invasion of Iraq and toppling of Saddam Hussein can be seen as the beginning of the end for the remaining holdouts of secular republicanism in the Middle East. It marks a comeback for the ex-colonial powers and the US who have maintained their interests in the region via the repressive Gulf monarchies, Israel, and to a much lesser extent Turkey versus the secular republicanism most famously associated with Egypt's Nasser.

That Nasserite secular republicanism was the Middle East's best chance for independent development and uniting into a greater entity since the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire. The ex-colonial powers and the US recognized this and promptly worked against it, via support for the Gulf monarchies and Israel, installation of the shah in Iran (with a coup against a secular democratic government), and in countless other actions.

The Nasserite secular republics proved unable to overcome this array of opponents and the natural obstacles to more advanced development, becoming over time a stale part of the fractured equilibrium that was the Middle East until 2003. Since then they have steadily lost ground to religious factions which have homegrown credentials, populist appeal, but are likely to be very inept at development with unrealistic visions for the region. These factions are favored by interventionist Western powers as they are likely to keep the Middle East fractured, underdeveloped, and conflict fatigued; in other words primed for divide and conquer.

While Turkey’s former leaderships kept a proportionately limited foreign policy to serve its own interests best amongst all the great power gaming surrounding it, the Islamist AKP leadership have been biting off more than Turkey can chew with the apparent misunderstanding that they can use their country’s affiliation with Western powers to expand Turkey’s influence while the reverse is true. The writing’s on the wall.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
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Putin opens Benghazi door for Obama
By M K Bhadrakumar

At a time when the United States-Russia "reset" lies in limbo, it should come as no surprise that President Vladimir Putin has made one of the most important statements of his four-month-old presidency, drawing attention to the commonality of interests between the two major world powers and indeed between Russia and the West on one of the hottest issues of current world politics - the Middle Eastern question.

Putin's statement on Thursday came in the nature of his reaction to the terrorist attack on the US consulate in Benghazi, Libya, and the killing of the American ambassador. Without doubt, it was a structured statement - albeit couched as ex tempore remarks to the media - that amounts to a dramatic call for Russia and the West to jointly mould the Arab Spring in the right direction.

The Kremlin statement stands apart from harsh Chinese comments, which have been more in the nature of critical finger-pointing and "I-told-you-so" homilies. To be sure, Moscow sees a window of opportunity to bridge the dangerous hiatus that has appeared in the respective positions of Russia and the West over such contentious issues as Syria and Afghanistan - and Iran.

...(cut)...


The Obama administration's policy on Syria is highly calibrated, stopping short of intervention but relentlessly creating the momentum for regime change in Damascus. Moscow would seek a fundamental course correction on the part of the Obama administration. Moscow expects that Washington would sit up, finally, and begin to comprehend that if Syria unravels, it will be manifold more catastrophic than what the Libyan "revolution" turned out to be in its aftermath.

It is this expectation that Putin's statement has sought to convey to Obama. The statement is intended as a signal to Obama at a moment when he is most receptive to fresh thinking on the Middle East question. It signals that if a window of opportunity arises for Russia to work together with the US on a political transformation in Syria, that would open up a new vista of possibilities in the UN Security Council, and, in turn, even the flame of the Russia-US "reset" may begin to shine again.

The big question is whether the Obama administration will see things that way. In 2001, George W Bush took Putin's support and then forgot about it for the next seven years.

On a grander scheme, the Russians are afraid of becoming China's poodle due to their own weakness (like the post-WWII UK became to the USA) and want to join the camp of their previous enemies who still remember their former days of might and glory. Whatever China does to support a fledgling Russia that heavily relies on oil and arms exports, the Russians feel the stint of being unable to achieve much on their own. Add the population imbalance between the Russian East and even Manchuria and Inner Mongolia, let alone all of China, and you get the nightmare of a "Yellow Hordes Takeover" that somehow crept into the Russian mind.
Syria might profit from the achieveability of a peaceful solution as common enemies can be spotted and new frontlines drawn. Russia will remain attention extracting as long as they don't get their economy going strong for which they need and don't want China as most important partner. The USA can play with these conditions to their advantage and force structural changes in Syria that are not related to the military situation on the ground because other than Russia the Alawi have no backing and China has no interests at stake there.
India's position as a secular country with one of the world's largest and diverse Muslim population would be interesting, because from a Russian point of view the West wants India and Russia tries to be best friends with them in order to reap benefits from that massive wooing contest.
 
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Franklin

Captain
Death from the skies

The growing horror of the Syrian civil war has put military intervention back on the agenda

The rebel fighters, lolling sleepily in a former police station, are suddenly interrupted by a rocket that crashes into the roof over an unoccupied room. Although the Syrian regime has ceded direct control over this and much of the rest of Idleb, a rural province in the north-west, shelling and other attacks from a distance are a frequent annoyance—and worse. As night falls, behind closed doors, a woman sits guessing which village the distant thud of falling shells is coming from tonight. Her children, meanwhile, are busy describing in detail how the mother of a friend had her limbs torn off by a rocket.

For all their risks, such villages look like positive havens to the Syrians fleeing Aleppo, the country’s second city and now its primary battleground. The government and the rebels have been trading turf back and forth along the front line since the grinding battle started in July. One day the rebels take an army barracks; the next the regime claims to have grabbed it back. Meanwhile, in the suburbs around Damascus, corpses of young men with their hands tied behind their backs are piling up. Shelling continues from Deir ez-Zor in the east to the southern plains of Deraa, as do air raids. Fighting rages in every province.

As the civilian death toll rises, the question of whether other countries should intervene with armed force is becoming acute. Opposition groups estimate that August was by far the bloodiest month since the uprising began in March last year, accounting for a fifth of the estimated 25,000 to have died so far (see chart). Michael Clarke, the director of the Royal United Services Institute, a think-tank in London, believes that the preference Europe and America have shown for staying out of the conflict, at least in terms of military action, is being worn down by both the scale of the suffering and the threat it now poses to the stability of fragile neighbouring countries. “We are not moving towards intervention,” he says. “But intervention is certainly moving towards us.”

There are several reasons for the escalation of brutality over the summer. Opposition fighters in the Free Syrian Army were over-confident in attempting to hold parts of Damascus and Aleppo before they had the means of doing so; counter-attacks concentrated the violence in places where there were lots of civilians to get hurt. And the regime of Bashar Assad appears to have discarded any form of restraint. That is partly because of its own increasing desperation, but also because in the past it was not sure how far the international community would let it go. Now it has crossed more or less all the “red lines” that Western politicians had hoped it would respect. The use of chemical weapons seems the only thing that would be certain to trigger a military response from outside.

The clearest indication that Syria no longer cares about calibrating its use of violence has been the growing use of air power, first with helicopter gunships, then with fighter jets. The air campaign allows the regime to terrorise and punish areas where it has lost control and to conserve its ground forces, especially its tanks, which have become more vulnerable as the rebels have grown in experience.

Aerial attacks also have the advantage of depending on a part of the armed forces which is almost entirely controlled by Alawites, the sect to which the Assad family adheres. Mr Assad’s father, Hafez, ran the air force before he launched the coup that brought him to power in 1970. It is reasonably well equipped, with perhaps 325 aeroplanes that can be used for ground attack and 33 helicopter gunships, and its personnel are thought less prone to defection than army officers have proved.

The legal questions

If nothing happens to limit Mr Assad’s deployment of air power, the rebels will struggle to make further gains and may themselves become more savage in their frustration. The civilian death toll will continue to mount. The flow of refugees into neighbouring countries—4,000 a day are trying to cross into Turkey—will grow.

But what limits on the regime’s violence might the West and the uprising’s Sunni Arab supporters, such as Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar, impose—and to what purpose? The options include providing the rebels with more anti-aircraft weapons; establishing a humanitarian corridor from north of Aleppo to the border with Turkey under the protection of outside forces, a call made by France’s president, François Hollande, and Turkey’s foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, in the first week of September; enforcing a no-fly zone over the entire country; and actively seeking to end the regime. Each of these options looks likely to have unwanted consequences, and they are anyway all likely to merge into each other.

They are also probably illegal. The 1945 UN charter prohibits all use of force against other countries, unless in legitimate self-defence or with authorisation by the UN Security Council. The doctrine of the responsibility to protect (R2P), allowing states to intervene to protect civilians from atrocities where their own government is failing to do so, does not create a new exception to this rule. The Security Council must give its approval.

Some argue that in an international emergency, when the Security Council is blocked by the veto, or threat of veto, of one of its permanent members (as now, by Russia and China), the General Assembly can bypass the Security Council and authorise the use of force itself. This first happened in 1950 at the height of the Korean war, when Russia was blocking international intervention. But this ruse, if ever legitimate, has now fallen into disrepute.

NATO’s action in Kosovo at the end of the 1990s is often cited as an example of compelling political and moral considerations leaving no choice but to act outside international law. But the whole universal system of collective security could be undermined if it were invoked so soon again, particularly after the highly questionable invasion of Iraq in 2003—and would leave those involved liable to prosecution for war crimes before the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

In the absence of a Security Council resolution, America would at a minimum require an active coalition of the willing that included the endorsement of NATO and the Arab League. There would have to be a political end beyond reducing the regime’s capacity for violence against its own people—but what that might be remains far from clear.

Perhaps the most superficially appealing choice would be to establish a limited no-fly zone around a protected area, an idea that was briefly discussed as a possibility in Libya. NATO, if it agreed to be the guarantor of such a safe zone, would declare that any attack would be met with a vigorous response. The hope would be that its bluff would not be called. But a single safe haven might have little effect in a conflict now so widely dispersed; if one were guaranteed there would soon be calls for others. General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of America’s joint chiefs of staff, says that the establishment of a humanitarian zone would mean an obligation to protect it not only from Syrian aircraft but also from missile attack and artillery, requiring the option of attacks on ground forces as well as aircraft.

Going in

To threaten force means being ready to follow through, which would be a big commitment. General Dempsey stresses that any comparison between the no-fly zone established in Libya last year and the forcible imposition of something similar in Syria is spurious. He says that Syria’s integrated air-defence system is many times more capable than Libya’s while covering a smaller area, making it a much more challenging obstacle.

Unlike the air defences of Serbia, which NATO took on with relative ease during the 1999 Kosovo campaign, Syria’s are designed to deal with a sophisticated adversary—Israel. The Syrian regime has spent billions trying to get them up to scratch. They include modern Russian systems, which Western experts expect to be highly capable. There is the SA-22 Greyhound, a mobile system with both surface-to-air (SAM) missiles and anti-aircraft guns, the SA-17 Grizzly, a medium-range missile capable of handling many different targets simultaneously, and the long-range SA-5 Gammon, which poses a threat to command-and-control aircraft and aerial tankers. Syria also has about 4,000 rockets, which, like American Stingers, can be carried around without vehicles and hoisted onto a shoulder for use: “man-portable air-defence systems”, or MANPADS.

Such forces are not insurmountable; as General Dempsey says without braggadocio, his forces “can do just about anything”. But unlike the intervention in Libya, where France and Britain took point and America “led from behind”, an intervention in Syria would have to be a mostly American affair, and as such it would be done with massive force from the outset. Douglas Barrie, an air-power expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London, says America would insist on quickly destroying Syria’s air defences to reduce the risk to its forces as far as possible.

General Dempsey claims that no contingency planning for such a campaign has been ordered beyond what he calls “the commander’s-estimate level of detail”. A sense of what it might require, though, comes from a detailed open-source analysis by Brian Haggerty of MIT’s Security Studies Programme, which looked at a campaign to suppress Syrian air defences and establish safe zones in the north-west of the country.

Mr Haggerty reckons this would require (for openers) striking around 450 targets, including more than 20 command, control and early-warning radar centres, 150 SAM sites, 205 aircraft shelters, 32 additional air-base targets, 27 surface-to-surface (SS) missile batteries and 12 anti-ship cruise-missile batteries. As Mr Barrie points out, such a long list means a lot of work to identify and find targets. Western special forces are probably already on the ground in Syria compiling such a list, as well as identifying where Syria’s many chemical- and biological-weapons production and storage sites are.

Mr Clarke says that some harm may already have been done to Syria’s air-defence systems by Western cyber-attacks. Syria is more vulnerable than Libya was to such tactics, because of its greater reliance on computers for integration and control. It has been reported that when the Israeli air force attacked a nuclear site in Syria in 2007 it used such tricks to crash the country’s air defences at the right moment, but such claims should be treated with some scepticism. The Israelis would probably like the world to believe that they have dark cyber arts at their disposal, rather than that they simply caught the Syrians napping.

Mr Haggerty calculates that the opening phase of the campaign would require nearly 200 strike aircraft and over 100 support aircraft—several times the number used in the opening phase of the action in Libya. On top of the sorties by strike aircraft, there would also be a lot more sorties by heavy bombers than Libya saw, and a lot more cruise-missile salvoes. (The strike aircraft would probably not include America’s latest stealth fighter, the F-22, which despite its costly radar-proofing is not well suited to such attacks.) Mr Haggerty thinks 600-700 cruise missiles might be necessary, compared with 221 used against Libya in 2011 and 802 used in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Thereafter, round-the-clock fighter sorties would have to be flown in a hunt for Syria’s mobile missile launchers (which would be visible only when they turned their radars on, or were spotted by special forces on the ground) and to deter what was left of its air force from flying. Any attempt by the regime to bring its long-range artillery near the safe zones would also have to be stopped.

In terms of logistics, cruise missiles could be launched from American submarines in the Mediterranean and possibly from ships in the Gulf, although the shipswould be at the limit of their range. More probably, a second carrier battle group would have to join the US Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean. But if the carrier group was one of the two now patrolling in or near the Gulf with the Fifth Fleet, that would diminish America’s ability to deter an aggressive response from Iran if Israel were to attack its nuclear facilities. The need for such deterrence is a strategic concern which outweighs Syria in Washington’s estimation, at least for the time being.

Other strike fighters and support aircraft could fly from Incirlik, a NATO airbase in southern Turkey, and from the British base at Akrotiri in Cyprus. Both bases would be within range of Syrian Scud-B missiles. However, if Syria were to start using its Scud arsenal, the campaign to destroy its air defences would rapidly switch to one of explicit regime change.

The other option

America and its allies could do all this if the order were given—but not without committing substantial resources and accepting some losses. It is also inevitable that many more civilians would be killed by American and Western bombs than in Libya, where 72 were admitted to have been killed by NATO air strikes. Many air-defence installations, especially around Damascus, are ringed by buildings in which civilians live and work. As well as killing Syrian civilians, the attacks would probably also hit Russian, Chinese and Iranian technical advisers, causing yet more diplomatic trouble.

Where Muammar Qaddafi’s army was a hollowed-out shell dependent on foreign mercenaries, the Assad regime’s ground forces remain for the most part well-equipped and deployable. How their morale would survive an attack on the air-defence system and air force is not clear; but it is possible that those who want to defect have already done so, and those who remain are committed, come what may.

Mr Haggerty is clear that imposing a no-fly zone would eventually mean attacking other parts of the armed forces. “The idea that this could be kept limited to a defensive operation is wishful thinking,” he says. “You would quickly become the air force for one side in a civil war with the objective of regime change.” Without coherent leadership in the rebel forces, such a war could be a bloody mess, and the West would be tarred by association with the more feral militias. The fact that the destruction of Syria’s air power would be a boon to Israel would also add to suspicions about Western motives.

Given the difficulties, it is tempting to conclude, as Mr Barrie does, that the least-bad option may still, just, be to do nothing. On the other hand, can the West continue to stand aside when civilians are being killed at an accelerating rate and a strategically vital region is threatened with meltdown? There really are no easy choices.

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SampanViking

The Capitalist
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On a grander scheme, the Russians are afraid of becoming China's poodle due to their own weakness (like the post-WWII UK became to the USA) and want to join the camp of their previous enemies who still remember their former days of might and glory. Whatever China does to support a fledgling Russia that heavily relies on oil and arms exports, the Russians feel the stint of being unable to achieve much on their own. Add the population imbalance between the Russian East and even Manchuria and Inner Mongolia, let alone all of China, and you get the nightmare of a "Yellow Hordes Takeover" that somehow crept into the Russian mind.
Syria might profit from the achieveability of a peaceful solution as common enemies can be spotted and new frontlines drawn. Russia will remain attention extracting as long as they don't get their economy going strong for which they need and don't want China as most important partner. The USA can play with these conditions to their advantage and force structural changes in Syria that are not related to the military situation on the ground because other than Russia the Alawi have no backing and China has no interests at stake there.
India's position as a secular country with one of the world's largest and diverse Muslim population would be interesting, because from a Russian point of view the West wants India and Russia tries to be best friends with them in order to reap benefits from that massive wooing contest.

Not really with you on that one Kurt (Re Sino-Russian relations) and this is because I noted a long time ago that they have for a long time now, quite deliberately operated their alliance (which is what it is) in a way that makes the policy of each nation separate, but actually synchronised and in strategic alignment. We know this because, irrespective of the direction from which each country approaches an issue, they always end up supporting each other and never vote against each other.
The reason for this is simple, this method keeps their alliance opaque and diffuse and prevents effective counter measures to be taken against them collectively. In short it ensures that they do not present themselves as a concrete target, which would play into the hands and strengths of the strategic competitors.

Re Putins comments re Libya and Syria, I would draw your attention to the recent attack on Camp Bastion:

This from the BBC

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In a statement, Nato said the attack had been carried out by 15 insurgents dressed in US Army uniforms who "appeared to be well-equipped, trained and rehearsed".

"The insurgents, organised into three teams, penetrated at one point of the perimeter fence," it said.

As well as the six AV-8B Harrier jets destroyed, two were significantly damaged. Three refuelling stations were also destroyed, and six aircraft hangars were damaged.

Fourteen of the insurgents were killed, Nato said, and one was taken into custody. Nine coalition personnel were wounded.

Could it be that the reason for the success of the attack, the tactics, weapons and uniforms is because all were obtained directly from NATO in either Libya or Turkey and that these same persons are now in Afghanistan turning all against their former benefactors?
If so I see a far better and more immediate reason for Putins comments; exploiting real weakness and doubt within NATO, rather than any Geopolitical split with China.
 

delft

Brigadier
The only way to protect civilians in Syria is to stop supporting the terrorists. Are the Western countries prepared to do that?
 

Kurt

Junior Member
It's the least problem to obtain US army uniforms and infantry equipment in Wall Mart. The training in tactics can include many sources from Chechenian Spetsnaz to ex-Libyan special forces or the usual Afghan army infiltration, all have enough time to watch US forces in action from really close. In any war someone tried to pull that off and with modern levels of make-up technology a group of Somali pirates can convincingly pretend to be a Viking horde out of time and place.
Having 14 killed and one prisoner out of 15 attackers smells like another suicide squad with the trainers staying behind that has been going on for years in various uniforms and other clothes.
From Africa we have a number of reports how some warlords operate with human waves brainwashed by trauma and shame of commited acts that are constantly trained in military matters in order to be occupied and held in check by the trainers operating as military police. I guess in many parts of the world the situation is rather similar.

Terrorists turning on their benefactors, if this problem gets out of hand we need to deliver manipulated explosive munitions that kill the shooter with the gun. Any civil war support will have some degree of uncontrolled spill-offs. News are about "man bites dog, not dog bites man".
Delft, I'm not on the stop the supply side as the repercussions of letting down an openly supported insurgency movement would be massive. I'm for more and better weapons, but in fewer and much better selected hands with clear goals.

Sampan, your opinion on Russia and China is quite interesting and I admit that it can reflect their modus operandi with wishful thinking seeing an alternative. However, to me the hardware delivery issues and tradition of cooperation imply that Russia's number one future ally is India and the alliance with China is the most convenient choice for Russia's interests. Having Pakistan as a close Chinese ally helps both of them to minimize spill offs from major friction sources in South Asia. I don't see India and China getting much closer with each other than Russia and China. Both Pakistan and India have good ties to the Western arms market, uncercutting a clear pattern of divided alliance structures. Opaque is one of the best words to describe our modern times, but Russia and China are quite adapt at pursuing their goals.
 
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delft

Brigadier
@Kurt
After 1865 the US forced Great Britain to pay compensation for building CSS Alabama. Of course the supporters of the terrorists will not want Syria to appear in The Hague claiming compensation from them for the damage done.

Here is an analysis by the Israeli journalist Victor Kotsev from Asia Times on line:
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Obama at a Syrian crossroads
By Victor Kotsev

United States policy in Syria is at a crossroads. The current situation is untenable: the bloodshed continues unabated, while spillover threatens all the neighboring countries, and by extension, US interests. Powerful ethno-nationalist movements are stirring, most importantly among the Kurds, and are threatening to confront the international community with a new reality on the ground. Rival powers Russia and China (each in its own way), sensing American weakness following the embassy attacks and riots throughout the Muslim world in the last week, are positioning to cash in.

On the other hand, there are simply no easy solutions in the country where a civil war is becoming more violent and intractable by the day. Such wars, as former CIA analyst Kenneth Pollack put it, end "in one of two ways: One side wins, typically in murderous fashion, or a third party intervenes with enough force to snuff out the fighting." [1]

Newsweek's Christopher Dickey, arguing against an American intervention, took this analysis further: "What Pollack does not say explicitly, but other intelligence officials involved with past conflicts in the Balkans and the Middle East remember, is that it's hard to end a civil war even with an intervention unless both sides are exhausted by the carnage. That took 15 years in Lebanon; three horrible years in Bosnia. Such are the savage wars of peace." [2]

The murder of the American ambassador in Libya last week, in the city he helped liberate, illustrates the danger of supporting rebel movements. (It bears noting that the precise circumstances of Christopher Stevens's death remain the subject of much speculation - the investigation is being conducted in secret, while wild rumors circulate in the Arab press, going as far as to claim that was gang raped by his assailants.)

Paradoxically, however, and especially in the context of the presidential election campaign, it could be that the tragedy will have the opposite effect on Washington. US President Barack Obama, feeling the pressure to show a more assertive face and to vindicate the policy choices he has made in the past four years, may deepen cooperation with the Syrian rebels and perhaps even consider some limited military intervention. The latter could take several forms such as a no-fly zone over the country or buffer zones which would allow the rebels to organized undisturbed by the government forces.

Arguing for a limited intervention in Foreign Policy Magazine, analyst Mark Katz points out that helping the opposition is also a way of retaining leverage with it:
[M]any have expressed fear that al Qaeda and its allies are gaining ground with the Syrian opposition. Clearly, though, America and the West can do more to prevent this through getting involved in the Syrian conflict than not doing so and thus clearing the field for al Qaeda. It should be recalled that in the 1990s, one of the aims of the Clinton Administration in aiding the Bosnian Muslims was not to let Iran be their principal external supporter. The same logic applies now. [3]
Obama's choice is not an enviable one. He has sided with the rebels so far, but not only have they committed plenty of atrocities of their own - their ranks infiltrated by foreign jihadists - but they have time and again failed to unite in a coherent political and military body.

The Syrian army, despite numerous signs of strain, seems to be gaining momentum. On Monday, it allegedly recaptured Midan, a key district of the commercial northern hub Aleppo, where fighting has been raging almost two months. The formidable Syrian anti-aircraft defenses remain intact, and combined with the chemical weapons stockpiles of the regime serve as a powerful deterrent to any international intervention. The German magazine Der Spiegel reported that Syria had tested shells designed to deliver poison gas last month. [4]

Friends and foes alike are pressuring Obama to back down - with the exception, perhaps, of some European and Gulf Arab powers. Iran has hardened its tone: on Sunday, the commander of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, General Mohammed Ali Jafari, acknowledged the presence of his men in Syria, and threatened to intervene more directly "if Syria came under military attack".

Russia is reportedly trying a different route, seeking to cajole Washington into seeing the Arab World its way in the wake of the Libya disaster and halting its efforts to oust Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. An Eastern European analyst suggested to the Asia Times Online that the Kremlin may pursue increased cooperation with the US in hopes of carving out for itself a new sphere of influence in the Middle East.

Most importantly, however, Turkey is shifting its course. Amid growing unrest in the Kurdish areas - some of the bloodiest fighting in at least 12 years - Ankara seems to be getting a bad case of cold feet in its support for the Syrian rebels. It has reportedly started to resettle Syrian refugees further away from the border, where they will be less useful in the armed struggle against the Syrian regime. [5]

The reason for this, beside the flaring sectarian tensions in southern Turkey (specifically between the Sunni Muslim refugees and the many native Arab Alawites who support the Damascus regime), is that Assad turned the Turkish idea of creating buffer zones near the border on its head. He pulled his forces back over the last couple of months, leaving much of northern Syria in the hands of Kurdish separatists allied to the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) - which is at the forefront of the armed struggle against the Turkish government.

Now if the Turks decide to establish a safe haven for the Syrian rebels near the border, many of the people they would be protecting would be their own worst enemies. The Kurdish Supreme Council in Syria has already announced plans to establish an organized military wing, [6] and given that Kurdish militias in the area have resisted calls to join or even ally themselves with the rest of the rebels, it is doubtful even that the Free Syrian Army (or its successor acronym, the Syrian National Army) would benefit much. Turkey would veritably shoot itself in the foot.

Paradoxically, this situation also creates a possibility for cooperation between Assad, should he make a comeback, and the Turkish government in the future. It is unlikely that the Syrian president would surrender territory to the Kurds if he has a choice, and it also seems improbable that the Kurds would give in without a fight. In such a hypothetical scenario, Assad's natural ally would be Turkey, which could join in squeezing the Kurdish militants from the north. It bears noting that the relationship between the two neighbors has already undergone at least two 180-degree turns in the past decade or so.

In other words, if Obama decides to side more forcefully with the Syrian rebels, he would be making a bold statement and setting a precedent that could upset his future relations with one of his key allies. It would be hard down the road not to support the democratic aspirations of other peoples such as the Kurds.

Various more exotic scenarios also remain open: for example, the recent meeting in Cairo between Turkish, Iranian, Egyptian and Saudi Arabian officials underscores the possibility of a more pronounced Egyptian role in the conflict, discussed on these pages in the past. As the largest and perhaps most popular Arab country, Egypt is best suited to send peacekeeping forces into the Levantine country.

In all, it is improbable that the US administration will break off ties with the Syrian rebels - at the very least since the survivability of the Assad regime is far from assured and Washington needs leverage with whomever comes next - but it is very hard to forecast how far exactly it will go in its support. Absent a bold move to break the stalemate, we can expect a protracted civil war, which the neighboring countries and more distant powers will try to contain inside the country. Their success is not guaranteed.

Notes:
1. How, When and Whether to End the War in Syria, Brookings, August 10, 2012.
2. The Danger of Syria Intervention, The Daily Beast, August 16, 2012.
3. It's Time to Act in Syria, Foreign Policy, September 12, 2012.
4. Syria Tested Chemical Weapons Systems, Witnesses Say, Der Spiegel, September 17, 2012.
5. In policy shift, Turkey moving Syrian refugees inland or to camps, Washington Post, September 10, 2012.
6. Plans to Unite Kurdish Armed Forces in Syria, Rudaw, September 12, 2012.



Victor Kotsev is a journalist and political analyst.

(Copyright 2012 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
 
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