Sukhoi passes into obselence as the 50th Raptor is delivered.

show me one source that says AL-41 has finished development. As far as I can tell, su-35 is using AL-35F and su-30mki is using AL-31FP and they are the most advanced sukhoi planes in service.

As for manevouerability, su-27's maybe maneouverable compared to fighters of its generation, but you can't really compare it to F-22, which is built for the best maneouverability and has supercruise capability. Heck, a plaaf official even stated that J-10's maneouverability is greater than that of su-27 and su-30mk.

As for stealth detecting radar, of course you can increase your chance of detecting a stealth plane if your radar is search from top or bottom, since the normal RCS figure is the frontal RCS value. As for F-22, I've read that the RCS is 27 cm^2.

show me one source that says AL-41 has finished development. As far as I can tell, su-35 is using AL-35F and su-30mki is using AL-31FP and they are the most advanced sukhoi planes in service.

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It actually seems that AL-41F does not fit into existing Su-27 platform. Su-47 had those engines, and it did fly before eyes of many people on MAKS, MiG MFI did have em, and it flied as well (though the whole MiG 1.42 project seems to be cancelled.)

Also try to enter AL-41F into Yandex and you'll find several reports of mass production preparations. Probably the engine is fresh, but it works. Speaking of AL-41F it allows supercruise and has better thrust then any american engine, so if somebody thinks that F-22 has superior power plant does not know much of turbofans himself.

As for manevouerability, su-27's maybe maneouverable compared to fighters of its generation, but you can't really compare it to F-22, which is built for the best maneouverability and has supercruise capability. Heck, a plaaf official even stated that J-10's maneouverability is greater than that of su-27 and su-30mk.

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Maneuverability doesn't seem to be among F-22's strong sides. The whole conception of F-22 as far as i can tell is to kill enermy before engaging into dogfight. Some sources even indicate F-22 having less maneuverability then F-15.

Aluka said:

It actually seems that AL-41F does not fit into existing Su-27 platform. Su-47 had those engines, and it did fly before eyes of many people on MAKS, MiG MFI did have em, and it flied as well (though the whole MiG 1.42 project seems to be cancelled.)

Also try to enter AL-41F into Yandex and you'll find several reports of mass production preparations. Probably the engine is fresh, but it works. Speaking of AL-41F it allows supercruise and has better thrust then any american engine, so if somebody thinks that F-22 has superior power plant does not know much of turbofans himself.



Maneuverability doesn't seem to be among F-22's strong sides. The whole conception of F-22 as far as i can tell is to kill enermy before engaging into dogfight. Some sources even indicate F-22 having less maneuverability then F-15.

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The F-22 is said to be the most manuevable American fighter ever to enter service (YF-23 and some experimental planes were more manuevable). It has TVC. Just look at the wing design! A blind man can tell that manuevability was in the mind of the plane's designers.

Well, the F-22 was not made with manouverability as the main feature, this is why they e.g. choose 2-D TVC instead of 3-D. It still is manouverable though, although I guess that the Berkut should be able to outturn it.

The Russian's new design on their fighters tends to "copy"the F-22 concept, this has been shown on their designs on future generation fighters,



Yes, the brown one is the russian concept.

Lavi said:

Well, the F-22 was not made with manouverability as the main feature, this is why they e.g. choose 2-D TVC instead of 3-D. It still is manouverable though, although I guess that the Berkut should be able to outturn it.

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Don't forget the "Berkut" version of the F-22 made by those russians, in order to implement more stealth.



See the new design for Russia's new sukhoi the PAK-FA. It's designs really resembles a hybrid between Su-27 and the F-22, plus it proves that the Raptor design is definitely manueverable enough for the russkies to somewhat plagiarize it .



The same thing can be said about the F-35s somewhat plagiarizing the russkies's Yak.

The Russian's new design on their fighters tends to "copy"the F-22 concept, this has been shown on their designs on future generation fighters

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Yes, it's I-21, but it's not a copy, both planes were decieved decades ago.

Don't forget the "Berkut" version of the F-22 made by those russians, in order to implement more stealth.

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"Those" Russians did not make any versions of F-22 (wtf?). And forward sweptwing is rather made to increase maneuverability then stealth. The picture you're reffering to is a possible look of mass production Su-47 made by some random guy (western guy by the way, who undoubtably thinks, that russians should copy western designs).

See the new design for Russia's new sukhoi the PAK-FA. It's designs really resembles a hybrid between Su-27 and the F-22, plus it proves that the Raptor design is definitely manueverable enough for the russkies to somewhat plagiarize it .

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This is the most wierd part of your post. PAK FA is a name of entire future development program, not a plane. T-50 (you can see it in the article's header) is a former designation of Suchoi's I-21 heavy fighter (from your first picture), but text and pictures in the last articles are referring to LFI fighter, which is the russian counterpart of F-35. And it does not look like F-22 at all.

The same thing can be said about the F-35s somewhat plagiarizing the russkies's Yak

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Most likely it's not plagiat. According to some sources F-35 was made in cooperation with Yakovlev.

Totally agree with Aluka on the last one. A few questions:

1)What project is 'the brown Russian F-22'?

2)" 'Berkut' version of F-22", what are you talking about? The airplane on the picture looks more or less eaxctly like the ordinary Berkut? What is the differnece between these two?

Kingpin said:

See the new design for Russia's new sukhoi the PAK-FA. It's designs really resembles a hybrid between Su-27 and the F-22, plus it proves that the Raptor design is definitely manueverable enough for the russkies to somewhat plagiarize it .

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This is an old one, USSR/Russia can't build own aircrafts, so they copy western designs. MiG-29 is a F-16/F-18 hybrid, the Su-27 is a F-14/F-15 copy, the Su-25 a YA-9/A-10 copy, and so on. That is what the expert thought when the aircrafts had not be examined throughly by western analysists, today, the experts have been forced to admit that they are completly different aircrafts, and that they could possibly not have been developed from each other. In ten years people will say the same about the Berkut/Raptor-story.

The Berkut is also built for a completly different requirement than the F-22, and as such, they are not really related in any meaningfull way.

the sukois and migs are not f-xx copies. they took somne concepts in the fxx's series and used the to great potential . the f-15 is a mig-25 copy.
westersn are so dumb.

the sukoi su-47 is not an f-22 copy. is a new desgn with some characteristics of the su-27. the mig-1.44 is a nearly brand new design altogether. in my opinion, china should pay the russians 1.5 billion to buy the su-47 and mig-1.44 prototype, along with their engines, avionics, radar, weapons suite, and blueprints. this will definitly aid j-xx development.

like my 1.44 icon?

Well, on the other hand, the F-15 is definitly NOT a MiG-25 copy. These two aircrafts are vastly different, except that they have two engines and two fins nearly nothing on them are similar. The F-15 is closer to the Su-27 (or the MiG-31, but that is already to strecth things a bit), but the west and east usually doesn't copy things, beacuse it's to hard to try to get blueprints from a hostile country when you can build your own aicraft.

In general it quite childishto say that some aircraft is a copy or plagiation from another. You all know that aircrafts are not desinged in the way of "hey, thats looks cool lets make our plane look even more cooler or at least as cool as the first..." Aircrafts and all other military systems are desinged mainly to fill and perform certain task. And as the tasks are usually quite similar in different nations, the required performance needed to fullfill the tasks tends to be also similar. As the laws of physics rules the world, desingers have limited space to move when talking about creativity. This is clearly evident in Both Soviet and US fighter development in the 60's and 70's. First US made F-15 to to fullfill the requirements. Then Soviets started to desing planes to counter it. Therefor the desing requirements where similar to US project and thus both Sukhoi and MiG came up whit porposals strikingly similar in overall concept to F-15. As it proved out that the soviet proposals where inferior to F-15, a new desing was made and there was the dawn of MiG-29 and Su-27.
Same thing is found on light singleengine fourth generation fighters. Sweden, Yugoslavia, India and Spain all had similar need for similar size and performance aircraft and whitout bigger co-operation Griben, LCA and Novi Avion ended up being Tailess delta whit candards (well not in LCA), F404/M88 size engine and sophisticated FBW system. One might say that this confircation is the best for that task so therefor all those countryes wnet that way. It's got nothing to do whit copying or plagiating....