Star Wars & Sc-Fi Talk

@kyanges

treads has its own limitation
a bipedal or quadrupedal (not necessarily humanoid) mech will be a very efficient tool of mass murder
just like robots replacing humans in manufacturing lines


@A.Mace

that's why we haven't seen robots roaming the street yet
all sorts of arrangements are possible if we have such a power source

Mechs and robots are two different things. What would the purpose of a mech be in combat and what can it do better that other platforms can't? Remember I'm talking reality not movie fantasy.

paintgun said:

@kyanges

treads has its own limitation
a bipedal or quadrupedal (not necessarily humanoid) mech will be a very efficient tool of mass murder
just like robots replacing humans in manufacturing lines

Click to expand...

Treads was just one example. The same works for wheels, drive screws, or whatever.

Two legs, six, or sixteen, humanoid or centipede, the things I said still apply. Whatever new advancement makes those work will also make other simpler forms of locomotion even more effective. If the goal is efficiency, then mechs are far less efficient than just putting a big gun on wheels.

Even the supposed mobility advantage afforded by legs on certain types of terrain would be negated by similar advances in materials.

For example, why bother building a rock climbing robot, if we can already cover wheels in a material that can stick to practically anything, like a gecko? A vehicle with those types of wheels would roll right up that wall far easier than climbing it. Basically the supposed technical advantages afforded by a mech simply are not there.

The only place I see mechs being useful is to replace a foot soldier outright, terminator style. The advantages there should be obvious.


Gecko-like material I was talking about:
[video=youtube;9ZJYbcG0Ts0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZJYbcG0Ts0[/video]

Traditional forms of locomotion still have a long future ahead of them. They may not be as flashy as a legged, walking mech, but they still get the job done more efficiently.

AssassinsMace said:

Mechs and robots are two different things. What would the purpose of a mech be in combat and what can it do better that other platforms can't? Remember I'm talking reality not movie fantasy.

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For example mechs can be used to find or become the first target for an IED (improvise explosive devices) when doing patrols, with it's hard armor shell the pilot would be safe to survive the initial blast. This would save a lot of infantry from getting killed or maimed. They can also shield soldiers on the move from gun fire during maneuvers, as well as locating and identified the enemy and sniper location even through bad visual or inclement weather. In the mechanize infantry department they can help out the armor units to locate enemy helicopters and special forces armed with anti-tank weapons with the mech's sensor and radar (believe me you can't hear a helicopter coming from inside a tank). The mechs could provide cover and support fire in all location. Those are a just a few I can think of as of now.

Well you don't really need a mech to do that. We see IEDs take out M1s. Big enough explosion... it's going to break. The Terminator was brought up? A pipe bomb blew the first one apart. And the Terminator is a robot not a mech. Fact is future robots will be covered in something like plastic not metal simply because metal is heavier. It doesn't matter what future power source you can think of. The technology used to create it can destroy it as well. That's what I'm talking about everything balances out. So when it comes down to it, the only difference between like a tank and a Mech is one walks and one rolls. Engineering a mech that can walk and handle combat conditions is going to be way more complicated and expensive than a tank. Whatever power source you think you can power a mech to do the job will make a tank move even faster. What you can armor a Mech can armor a tank. What weapon you give a Mech can be given to a tank. What kills a tank will kill a Mech as well. So it comes down to which one is more practical. Spending way more money on a complicate sophisticated machine just so it can walk or a simple platform as a tank?

Why is there fear over the ASBM? Why do they call it the end of carriers? It's just a missile. Regardless of the debate on whether it works or not let's just say it works. What makes it different is it can destroy a carrier in one shot. They say it'll make carriers obsolete because a carrier is so expensive to make, why bother when it'll be destroyed with one shot beyond the range of their aircraft for normal carrier operations. So they're not going to spend money to make something so expensive when it and its purpose can be destroyed so easily.

Whatever mech technology one thinks is so great isn't exclusive to just mechs. Their weapons and their armor can be put onto a tank. So what does a mech have left? It can walk and articulate like a human. How is that an edge in combat? It cost more money to make it just articulate like a human and it does nothing to give it an edge in battle. In movies you don't see cost being a factor. It's everything in reality.

AssassinsMace said:

Well you don't really need a mech to do that. We see IEDs take out M1s. Big enough explosion... it's going to break. The Terminator was brought up? A pipe bomb blew the first one apart. And the Terminator is a robot not a mech. Fact is future robots will be covered in something like plastic not metal simply because metal is heavier. It doesn't matter what future power source you can think of. The technology used to create it can destroy it as well. That's what I'm talking about everything balances out. So when it comes down to it, the only difference between like a tank and a Mech is one walks and one rolls. Engineering a mech that can walk and handle combat conditions is going to be way more complicated and expensive than a tank. Whatever power source you think you can power a mech to do the job will make a tank move even faster. What you can armor a Mech can armor a tank. What weapon you give a Mech can be given to a tank. What kills a tank will kill a Mech as well. So it comes down to which one is more practical. Spending way more money on a complicate sophisticated machine just so it can walk or a simple platform as a tank?

Why is there fear over the ASBM? Why do they call it the end of carriers? It's just a missile. Regardless of the debate on whether it works or not let's just say it works. What makes it different is it can destroy a carrier in one shot. They say it'll make carriers obsolete because a carrier is so expensive to make, why bother when it'll be destroyed with one shot beyond the range of their aircraft for normal carrier operations. So they're not going to spend money to make something so expensive when it and its purpose can be destroyed so easily.

Whatever mech technology one thinks is so great isn't exclusive to just mechs. Their weapons and their armor can be put onto a tank. So what does a mech have left? It can walk and articulate like a human. How is that an edge in combat? It cost more money to make it just articulate like a human and it does nothing to give it an edge in battle. In movies you don't see cost being a factor. It's everything in reality.

Click to expand...

True, but a tank can't climb mountains like a mech would and provide good cover fire at the same time. A mech simply doesn't need a mobile bridge to cross over a river that saves a lot of time waiting for the corps of engineer to get there. Mechs can also do recon mission under water to survey the beach front and river paths. Think of them as a computerized walking APC that can go through tough terrain that a tank can't.

Equation said:

True, but a tank can't climb mountains like a mech would and provide good cover fire at the same time. A mech simply doesn't need a mobile bridge to cross over a river that saves a lot of time waiting for the corps of engineer to get there. Mechs can also do recon mission under water to survey the beach front and river paths. Think of them as a computerized walking APC that can go through tough terrain that a tank can't.

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Are you sure mech can climb a mountain? Remember we're talking reality not movies. A mech is going to be as heavy as a tank. Will whatever edge a mech can grab hold on a mountain side support the weight? Again if you have a power source capable of moving a mech as fast as you imagine up a mountain... put it in tank and it'll probably get up there faster. There is no difference between a mountainside and a tank rolling through a building unless you're talking a sheer cliff. But then again whatever how many tons your mech is, will the mountain side support the weight? Going through a river... again the weight isn't going to sink it and get stuck in the mud? By the laws of phyics, a tank will have an easier time getting across because the tracks distribute the weight. Whatever technology that you think will make it move nimbly through terrain is not exclusive for mechs. If you had a contest between a tank and a mech both using the same power source, the tank has inertia on it side to help move it along because it's rolling thus doesn't require as much energy to use. A Mech has no inertia for momentum except to fall flat forward. If you put a square wheel on a car, it requires more energy to move than a circle for a wheel.

It should tell you that if making a mech were so easy, why aren't there any now? Given the technology available, it's easier to make a tank that rolls or an aircraft that can fly than to make a mech. If there's ever a time where technology reaches a level where they can make a mech that can do all that movies portray, aircraft and tanks will still be better because the same technology will be available for them. Climbing a mountain or passing through a river is not important enough to make it when there are other means to accomplish that same task and especially if it's going cost more.

^^ thats why i said you lacked the imagination

there are some things considered the 'holy grails' of engineering feat that only exist in sci fi stories, and at the same time the reason for implausibility of many sci fi things becoming reality

like, the power source we discussed, simple, reliable, battery like qualities/characteristics, powerful, practical
the other popular one is anti gravity (which is quite impossible), or hover crafts/vehicles utilizing (again) the sci fi power source
light weight but ridiculously strong exotic material was also one of it, but nowadays nanocarbon/tubes research is making ways to all kinds of materials

thinking about future mechs/robots while sticking too much within the limitations of today's technology is counter intuitive
while your argument that all sort of improvements can be made to existing tanks or wheeled vehicles is true by itself, it shouldn't be the cause to prevent all sort of possibilities with future mechs/robot/cyborg warfare

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value."
- Marshal Ferdinand Foch [Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre] (circa 1911)

...... Too chime in... Not too chime in...

A Few Years Back there was a Mecha based Anime series... Big Shocker I know...
Called gasaraki most Mecha series use Robots the size of Skyscrapers these were closer too the size of the Robot I posted a Video about. Now gasaraki had it's moments of total insanity including dancing summoning of alien light shows, Reincarnation, samurai era Mecha But mixed in was another story arch Slightly Nationalistic and rather realistic involving rouge arms manufacturers, US interventionist politics, Rouge states, Family lies and Nepotism.
the Other story arch was a very close too now very realistic not too distant future ( china was not mentioned by the way.)
In this vision a Japanese arms Manufacturer developed for the SDF mecha Types (among the first of there kind). Now these were Frog looking roughly humanoid walking tanks that used mounted conventional arms like 25mm chain guns, Antitank missiles Stuff we talk about all the time. another Arms maker independently has built there own and a middle eastern conflict involving a rather loudmouthed Dictator becomes the stage for there first blooding. Mecha in the series are intended for Urban warfare using buildings and structures too attack from both at and above there targets.
Here are a few vids form it I consider it the Mecha at it's most practical.
the Demonstation Urban fighting Note Use of chainguns and AGTM's
[video=youtube_share;2Pi_qp-Wz2U]http://youtu.be/2Pi_qp-Wz2U[/video]
this was more open fighting and the tanks and IFV's are supposed too be the US army Although M1 does not have a Auto loader. Note Close in tactics use of cover and Concealment
[video=youtube_share;m4b-haPATmI]http://youtu.be/m4b-haPATmI[/video]
The Idea is light high speed maneuverability with fire power, think of it like a Attack helo on legs. There was also use in the series for Riot control that was rather nasty.

paintgun said:

^^ thats why i said you lacked the imagination

there are some things considered the 'holy grails' of engineering feat that only exist in sci fi stories, and at the same time the reason for implausibility of many sci fi things becoming reality

like, the power source we discussed, simple, reliable, battery like qualities/characteristics, powerful, practical
the other popular one is anti gravity (which is quite impossible), or hover crafts/vehicles utilizing (again) the sci fi power source
light weight but ridiculously strong exotic material was also one of it, but nowadays nanocarbon/tubes research is making ways to all kinds of materials

thinking about future mechs/robots while sticking too much within the limitations of today's technology is counter intuitive
while your argument that all sort of improvements can be made to existing tanks or wheeled vehicles is true by itself, it shouldn't be the cause to prevent all sort of possibilities with future mechs/robot/cyborg warfare

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value."
- Marshal Ferdinand Foch [Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre] (circa 1911)

Click to expand...

You know what's wrong with your quote? Planes were already flying. Do you see any mechs as of the year 2012? Again... robots and mechs are different. Did I deny the possibility? No, I'm talking practicality. Robots can serve a practical purpose. Mechs in combat don't. You're arguing things you see done in movies and just because a mech reigns there. It doesn't in reality.

And I can imagine a tank beating a mech or a foot soldier with a portable rocket that can blow your mech apart. Might as well build yourself a Death Star. Please explain how a mech reigns. And I'll bet I can think of an alternative cheaper that beats it. How about a personal shield that can withstand anything your mech can muster. Then my foot soldier can pull out his .44 Magnum with a special bullet capable of penetrating anything and explode like a nuke but without the radiation. I can imagine a lot of things but realistically a mech would be a big waste of money because walking around and articulating like a human doesn't give it an edge on the battelfield. All you're going to do is supersize everything and what's the point of that? Fantasy is mech technology is exclusive for mechs. Realistically anything your mech has that you think makes it wondeful can be applied to anything else. So what's left is it can walk around and twindle its fingers. How does that give it an edge on the battlefield again? All your mech can do is beat-up someone smaller in size and weapons and much less armored. Translation... big waste of money... something fiction doesn't account because it's boring to portray. How about some power armor and you can fly around. Much more stealthy than your mech and it can beat it because I watched Robotech when I was a kid and it says so.

It comes down to this. A mech is a lot of sophisticated and complicated technology so it can mimic humans at a larger scale. You have to make a giant version of an assault rifle just so that giant finger that you made for your mech can pull the giant trigger on the giant assault weapon. What happens if the giant trigger finger breaks down? Can't pull the trigger because your giant finger doesn't work. Maybe to make it more efficient you can skip that part and affix the weapon so it can swing around on the giant arm-like appendage so it can still aim in all directions easy. Why stop it there if you're willing not to bother with fingers? How about placing that fixed weapon on an uncomplicated elevating swivel turret instead that does the same thing. And why stop there? Instead of having it walk with all that heavy armor which is slow and energy consuming, have it on tracks or wheels. And what you have is a tank hence why they call mechs a walking tank. And what's that process called to make a mech as efficient as possible? A big waste of time and money.

Tell me what job a mech can do in war that nothing else can and a mech doing it is the least expensive to accomplish.