South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

Blackstone said:

You are arguing just to argue, and that's with knowing your own facts are wrong. The 5th paragraph of the very article you quoted me in post 1890 said the USS Decatur never sailed within 12 mi. So, it was a legal FONOP in international waters. Full stop.

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Let me explain one more time and please pay attention,

(1) an unnamed pentagon official speaking on condition of anonymity mentioned that the destroyer sailed within waters claimed by "Communist" China, close to but not within the 12-nautical-mile territorial limits of the islands near "Communist" Triton and Woody island.
(2) China's Defense Ministry official spokesperson said the Decatur violated China's Territorial Waters as defined by the BASELINE since 1996 under UNCLOS Treaty and Chinese government has filed a diplomatic protest to the US government,
(3) Technically 12-nautical-mile territorial limits are defined by the BASELINE under UNCLOS treaty.
(4) Since US has not signed UNCLOS, it does not recognize the BASELINE as the technical 12-nautical-mile territorial limits,
(5) Commander Ross confirms that the Decatur FONOP was aimed at challenging "Communist" China’s BASELINES.

FYI "Communist" was meant to be sarcastic since my friend likes to interject politics to discussions.

antiterror13 said:

I think it is just a hedge ... just in case Trump would win

It is definitely not a coincidence

If Trump wins ...... none of those countries would dare to upset China .... Trump would make a deal with China and God knows what the deal would be

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Trump is an isolationist, so if he wins, maybe he will walk away from the region...... too much to hope for?

Dolcevita said:

Let me explain one more time and please pay attention,

(1) an unnamed pentagon official speaking on condition of anonymity mentioned that the destroyer sailed within waters claimed by "Communist" China, close to but not within the 12-nautical-mile territorial limits of the islands near "Communist" Triton and Woody island.
(2) China's Defense Ministry official spokesperson said the Decatur violated China's Territorial Waters as defined by the BASELINE since 1996 under UNCLOS Treaty and Chinese government has filed a diplomatic protest to the US government,
(3) Technically 12-nautical-mile territorial limits are defined by the BASELINE under UNCLOS treaty.
(4) Since US has not signed UNCLOS, it does not recognize the BASELINE as the technical 12-nautical-mile territorial limits,
(5) Commander Ross confirms that the Decatur FONOP was aimed at challenging "Communist" China’s BASELINES.

FYI "Communist" was meant to be sarcastic since my friend likes to interject politics to discussions.

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PRC claimed "baseline" outside 12mi means nothing for sovereign maritime territory. That's the current global norm. USS Decatur didn't sail within 12mi of any Chinese island, therefore, it didn't violate Chinese maritime territory. It's that simple. All this stuff about baseline is hot air.

US and every other nation on Earth may conduct FONOPS outside 12mi of another country's coast and natural islands. For rocks, it's 3 mi, and artificial islands gets 500 meter safety zone. Everything outside those parameters are legal for FONOPS. Communist China may do likewise if it so wish. Oh wait! It did off Hawaii! Word to the wise, not even the PRC may have its cake and eat it too.

Blackstone said:

PRC claimed "baseline" outside 12mi means nothing for sovereign maritime territory. That's the current global norm. USS Decatur didn't sail within 12mi of any Chinese island, therefore, it didn't violate Chinese maritime territory. It's that simple. All this stuff about baseline is hot air.

US and every other nation on Earth may conduct FONOPS outside 12mi of another country's coast and natural islands. For rocks, it's 3 mi, and artificial islands gets 500 meter safety zone. Everything outside those parameters are legal for FONOPS. Communist China may do likewise if it so wish. Oh wait! It did off Hawaii! Word to the wise, not even the PRC may have its cake and eat it too.

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Funny. please provide official source that PRC claimed "baseline" outside 12mi. in Pentagon's mind perhaps, Moreover, there is a perfectly legal way for contesting this under international law. Let the US sign UNCLOS and contest it there, That is if the US wants to behave like every other nation on Earth.

Blackstone said:

China had plenty of opposition, it just was too weak to do much about it. Today, the government representing China, the PRC, has plenty of capacity to right the wrongs. Diaoyu Island belongs to China, and it will be returned. Hopefully without blood.

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Don't really care about random individuals with unfounded claim. For that matter I really do not care of governments with unfounded claim either.
The we found it first or we named it first has no relevance to sovereignty either. A nation to claim sovereignty is to declare Terra Nullius and administer the territory first. Do you have any evidence that PRC had done the two before Japan?
No then PRC has no claim no matter how much you claim at the top of you voice.

Dolcevita said:

Funny. please provide official source that PRC claimed "baseline" outside 12mi. in Pentagon's mind perhaps, Moreover, there is a perfectly legal way for contesting this under international law. Let the US sign UNCLOS and contest it there, That is if the US wants to behave like every other nation on Earth.

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If the PRC doesn't have any baseline claims outside 12mi limit of natural islands, 3mi limit of rocks, and 500 meters of artificial islands, then where's the problem and why is CCP ministry complaining about USS Decatur "violating Chinese territory?" US official said the Decatur didn't sail within 12mi, and CCP official haven't denied that, so if both sides are correct, then the FONOP was in international waters, therefore legal under international laws.

Facts are, Beijing doesn't deny USS Decatur stayed outside 12mi, what it doesn't like is a foreign navy ship conducting military-related operations in China's EEZ, without first obtaining 'permission' from it. That's the whole argument, and all this baseline stuff is just noise. Unfortunately for the CCP, FONOPS outside legal territorial limits (12mi/3mi/500m) are legal under international law, and has been the international norm for a long, long time. China certainly has the right to do the same to the US or to anyone else. It also has the right to challenge the 'norm' in the International Court of Justice, or even do a PR stunt at the Permanent Arbitration Debate Club in The Hague.

SamuraiBlue said:

Don't really care about random individuals with unfounded claim. For that matter I really do not care of governments with unfounded claim either.
The we found it first or we named it first has no relevance to sovereignty either. A nation to claim sovereignty is to declare Terra Nullius and administer the territory first. Do you have any evidence that PRC had done the two before Japan?
No then PRC has no claim no matter how much you claim at the top of you voice.

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You know very well Diaoyu was taken from the Qing Empire by Imperial Japan in 1895. That was on imperial China, because it was weak and couldn't defend itself. Nevertheless, all successive Chinese governments claimed the island and Japan's possession of it was illegal. The island should have been returned to China after Imperial Japan's unconditional surrender in WW2.

American government under Nixon handed administrative rights to Tokyo in 1971 for geopolitical reasons; both RC and PRC protested the ignoble act, but both were too weak to do much about it. Fast forward to today and we have a different universe and a changing (reverting) Asian order. No one knows how long Tokyo can continue to hold onto its illegal gains, but the wrong will be made right. Full stop.

Blackstone said:

You know very well Diaoyu was taken from the Qing Empire by Imperial Japan in 1895. That was on imperial China, because it was weak and couldn't defend itself. Nevertheless, all successive Chinese governments claimed the island and Japan's possession of it was illegal. The island should have been returned to China after Imperial Japan's unconditional surrender in WW2.

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NO I DO NOT KNOW ! !
Try doing what you preach and show some evidence that China had administered the isles before Japan to make it a compelling claim.
Without it it's just a meaningless howl in the winds.

SamuraiBlue said:

NO I DO NOT KNOW ! !
Try doing what you preach and show some evidence that China had administered the isles before Japan to make it a compelling claim.
Without it it's just a meaningless howl in the winds.

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I already gave you an official US State Department document stating Daioyu is part of greater Taiwan, and you recently acknowledged that fact. When Japan lost the war and returned Taiwan to China, Daioyu should have been given back too. US made a mistake not doing it after WW2 and then made another one in giving Japan admin rights to Diaoyu in 1971.

Bottom line is both Washington and Beijing view Diaoyu as part of Taiwan, ergo part of China. That is the reason US takes a "neutral" position on sovereignty of the island; it knows Diaoyu rightfully belongs to China, but it doesn't want to lose Japan's support to encircle China, so it gets splinters in its arse by sitting on the fence.

Blackstone said:

US official said the Decatur didn't sail within 12mi, and CCP official haven't denied that, so if both sides are correct, then the FONOP was in international waters, therefore legal under international laws.

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First Do you even read?
(2) China's Defense Ministry official spokesperson said the Decatur violated China's Territorial Waters as defined by the BASELINE since 1996 under UNCLOS Treaty and Chinese government has filed a diplomatic protest to the US government,

Second
Your US Official is an anonymous and did not want to be quoted. How much credibility does this anonymous official has.

Third,
(5) Commander Ross confirms that the Decatur FONOP was aimed at challenging "Communist" China’s BASELINES. Meaning that Decatur was challenging the 12 mile Territorial Baseline as defined by UNCLOS,

Fourth.
You are confusing Baseline 12-mile Territorial Waters with EEZ.

This is my last post as you are obviously not reading and I am just wasting my time arguing with Communist Bad. Anonymous US Official Good. attitude.