Significance of the Chinese military contribution to World War 2 disputed.

lightspeed

Junior Member
So you're saying the PLA kicked the KMT's ass with even less troops, and most of them green troops at that?


my point is the CCP greatly exaggerated it’s war efforts. no large number of troops and little weapons. they can’t fight much. it's as simple as that. if the CCP had the large number of troops, that is even worse. with the large troops, they only fought 2 notable battles throughout the 8 years of long war. that is really unacceptable.
 

solarz

Brigadier
during the civil war, the KMT made too many mistakes, and the CCP made few mistakes. the KMT eventually screwed themselves to hand CCP the victory. i mentioned many times already. if the KMT had a clear military advantage at the onset, that was quickly eliminated by the Communist spies inside KMT’s top military brass.

the CCP’s top military commanders had taken time off for the Mao Zedong indoctrination program at Yan'an from 1942-44. if they were really doing a great deal of fighting against the Japanese, why is that they enjoyed leisure time in Yan’an for long periods while the war was still ongoing. Chiang Kai Shek was too busy with the war. he didn't recall back any of his busy region and district commanders back to Chungkung for some meaningless indoctrination program. hope you get my point.

In all of life's endeavours, EXPERIENCE is the factor that allows people to avoid mistakes. Someone might get lucky from time to time, and we call that "beginner's luck". However, in the long run, the person with the more experience will have the better performance.

War is no different. An army of inexperienced troops might get lucky and win a battle or two, but you don't win a war by just winning a few battles. Intelligence also does not operate in a vacuum. In fact, in order for intelligence to be effective, there needs to be a tight coordination between the covert operatives, the strategic commanders, and the field commanders.

The idea that the PLA won the Civil War with a small green army but a sophisticated spy network simply does not hold water.
 

solarz

Brigadier
my point is the CCP greatly exaggerated it’s war efforts. no large number of troops and little weapons. they can’t fight much. it's as simple as that. if the CCP had the large number of troops, that is even worse. with the large troops, they only fought 2 notable battles throughout the 8 years of long war. that is really unacceptable.

Unacceptable by whom? By you?

The communist force numbered only 1/10th that of the NRA during the Resistance War. The most notable Hundred Regiment Battle resulted in the Japanese turning their attention toward their NW "safe" zone, and the Eighth Route Army suffered massive casualties in the resulting "Three All" campaigns.
 

delft

Brigadier
during the civil war, the KMT made too many mistakes, and the CCP made few mistakes. the KMT eventually screwed themselves to hand CCP the victory. i mentioned many times already. if the KMT had a clear military advantage at the onset, that was quickly eliminated by the Communist spies inside KMT’s top military brass.

the CCP’s top military commanders had taken time off for the Mao Zedong indoctrination program at Yan'an from 1942-44. if they were really doing a great deal of fighting against the Japanese, why is that they enjoyed leisure time in Yan’an for long periods while the war was still ongoing. Chiang Kai Shek was too busy with the war. he didn't recall back any of his busy region and district commanders back to Chungkung for some meaningless indoctrination program. hope you get my point.
I don't. If your strategy is wrong, you can win campaigns and still loose the war. We see the KMT setting up operations with numerically superior forces in '46 and '47 and being defeated because the CCP concentrated its lesser forces much better. Part was Chiang Kai Shek trying to use up forces of war lords who didn't want to be sacrificed, which was political incompetence. But part was KMT elite forces being overwhelmed by numerically superior CCP forces. That was just bad military staff work. CCP staffs were better. You cannot blame it all on superior spying.
 

lightspeed

Junior Member
I don't. If your strategy is wrong, you can win campaigns and still loose the war. We see the KMT setting up operations with numerically superior forces in '46 and '47 and being defeated because the CCP concentrated its lesser forces much better. Part was Chiang Kai Shek trying to use up forces of war lords who didn't want to be sacrificed, which was political incompetence. But part was KMT elite forces being overwhelmed by numerically superior CCP forces. That was just bad military staff work. CCP staffs were better. You cannot blame it all on superior spying.


what do you think of the 1942-1944 Yan’an Rectification Movement ? the CCP's important commanders were so free to leave the battle areas to stay for long periods in Yan'an ? they weren’t busy fighting the Japanese ?


抗日戰爭勝利後,韩被任命海南岛防卫司令官。他暗中执行周恩来的指示,保护中國共產黨的琼崖纵队,後任桂系四十六軍軍長,被调往山东与华东野战军作战。1947年萊蕪戰役(又稱吐絲口戰役)期间,他向解放军提供軍事情報,並運用軍長職權延誤軍機,使部隊陷入包圍,並臨時故意將四十六軍,交給該軍三位師長中資歷最淺的188師師長莫敵代理其軍長,造成另一位師長不服,產生混亂、使解放軍一舉消滅46軍以及73軍(前77師)六萬余人,生俘李仙洲,使膠東、魯南的國軍失聯。[3]

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Han Liancheng gave victory on a plate to the CCP in that battle. it's well known, in many battles, the CCP developed its strategy and made its plans, using the KMT’s plans as references. that significantly increased the CCP’s chances of victory.
the KMT larger forces’ advantage was often futile because the CCP knew how to make effective use of its lesser forces to attack the KMT’s weaker positions due to the accurate intelligence information.
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
In all of life's endeavours, EXPERIENCE is the factor that allows people to avoid mistakes. Someone might get lucky from time to time, and we call that "beginner's luck". However, in the long run, the person with the more experience will have the better performance.

War is no different. An army of inexperienced troops might get lucky and win a battle or two, but you don't win a war by just winning a few battles. Intelligence also does not operate in a vacuum. In fact, in order for intelligence to be effective, there needs to be a tight coordination between the covert operatives, the strategic commanders, and the field commanders.

The idea that the PLA won the Civil War with a small green army but a sophisticated spy network simply does not hold water.

Unacceptable by whom? By you?

The communist force numbered only 1/10th that of the NRA during the Resistance War. The most notable Hundred Regiment Battle resulted in the Japanese turning their attention toward their NW "safe" zone, and the Eighth Route Army suffered massive casualties in the resulting "Three All" campaigns.


I don’t deny the CCP’s military competence. the result was because of the complex interacting factors. I am just pointing out the spies' significance.

you earlier pointed out a "CIA report 1948" which stated there was little evidence that the Soviet Union was supplying military aid to the CCP whatever. you may like to read "CIA - Implementation of Soviet objectives in China 1947" which stated there was some evidence that the Soviet Union provided concealed aid to the CCP, and the North Korean troops had joined the Communist army to fight against the Nationalist forces.


if the Communists had 800,000 troops in 1944, that was 1/5 of the Nationalists. if you want to use the argument that the Communists had much lesser troops so they of course fought much fewer battles. if that's the case then they can’t claim to be the main fighting force. if they had the large number of troops then they should have fought some conventional battles against the Japanese. a repeat of Hundred Regiment Battle on the Japanese controlled Jinpu Railway would provide useful contribution toward China’s war efforts. but they fought no notable battles for the last 4 years of the war. are you familiar with the Pan Hannian story ?
 

delft

Brigadier
The CCP armed forces were much smaller than NRA. After the 100 regiment offensive there were no large battles with the Japanese army. But there were so many small actions that units and staffs were well trained. The staffs were so well trained that they were able to handle the large growth during and after WWII.
 

solarz

Brigadier
what do you think of the 1942-1944 Yan’an Rectification Movement ? the CCP's important commanders were so free to leave the battle areas to stay for long periods in Yan'an ? they weren’t busy fighting the Japanese ?


抗日戰爭勝利後,韩被任命海南岛防卫司令官。他暗中执行周恩来的指示,保护中國共產黨的琼崖纵队,後任桂系四十六軍軍長,被调往山东与华东野战军作战。1947年萊蕪戰役(又稱吐絲口戰役)期间,他向解放军提供軍事情報,並運用軍長職權延誤軍機,使部隊陷入包圍,並臨時故意將四十六軍,交給該軍三位師長中資歷最淺的188師師長莫敵代理其軍長,造成另一位師長不服,產生混亂、使解放軍一舉消滅46軍以及73軍(前77師)六萬余人,生俘李仙洲,使膠東、魯南的國軍失聯。[3]

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Han Liancheng gave victory on a plate to the CCP in that battle. it's well known, in many battles, the CCP developed its strategy and made its plans, using the KMT’s plans as references. that significantly increased the CCP’s chances of victory.
the KMT larger forces’ advantage was often futile because the CCP knew how to make effective use of its lesser forces to attack the KMT’s weaker positions due to the accurate intelligence information.

First, the communist forces were using guerilla warfare. That means small companies of independently commanded units. This places importance on company and regiment commanders, while the strategic commanders decided the overall direction of the campaign. So it is not surprising that the top commanders did not have to be present in the operational areas. This is quite typical of guerilla warfare everywhere.

Second, to take your own example, the PLA was able to wipe out a better equipped, numerically superior foe just by disrupting its top-level command hierarchy. That demonstrates a highly skilled and experienced fighting force.


I don’t deny the CCP’s military competence. the result was because of the complex interacting factors. I am just pointing out the spies' significance.

you earlier pointed out a "CIA report 1948" which stated there was little evidence that the Soviet Union was supplying military aid to the CCP whatever. you may like to read "CIA - Implementation of Soviet objectives in China 1947" which stated there was some evidence that the Soviet Union provided concealed aid to the CCP, and the North Korean troops had joined the Communist army to fight against the Nationalist forces.

if the Communists had 800,000 troops in 1944, that was 1/5 of the Nationalists. if you want to use the argument that the Communists had much lesser troops so they of course fought much fewer battles. if that's the case then they can’t claim to be the main fighting force. if they had the large number of troops then they should have fought some conventional battles against the Japanese. a repeat of Hundred Regiment Battle on the Japanese controlled Jinpu Railway would provide useful contribution toward China’s war efforts. but they fought no notable battles for the last 4 years of the war. are you familiar with the Pan Hannian story ?

Here's a question: where would the communists have gained their military competence if they were not fighting the Japanese? The NRA was fighting the Japanese constantly, so why were the communists so much more combat effective shortly after WW2? Where, in your opinion, did they magically gain this competence?

Having large numbers mean nothing if you don't have the weapons and ammunition to equip them. It is well known that the Eighth Route Army suffered from severe equipment shortage, to the point of one rifle shared among several troops, and each rifle had only a couple of bullets. They had no artillery pieces, and extremely limited amounts of heavy weapons.

You need to stop making straw man arguments and making misleading assumptions. Nobody on this forum has claimed that the communists were the main fighting force.

The communist force grew larger toward the end of the war, but they numbered far fewer during the majority of the war. The Hundred Regiment Battle was the biggest offensive the Eighth Route Army could carry out, and the resulting retaliation decimated them. Mao rightly pointed out that they could not afford another Hundred Regiment Battle, which is why the communists stuck to their guerilla tactics thereafter.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
my point is the CCP greatly exaggerated it’s war efforts. no large number of troops and little weapons. they can’t fight much. it's as simple as that. if the CCP had the large number of troops, that is even worse. with the large troops, they only fought 2 notable battles throughout the 8 years of long war. that is really unacceptable.

It's true KMT did most of the fighting in WW2, and the Commies not so much. But, truth never got in the way of Communist propaganda about their minor role fighting the Japanese invaders.
 

lightspeed

Junior Member
First, the communist forces were using guerilla warfare. That means small companies of independently commanded units. This places importance on company and regiment commanders, while the strategic commanders decided the overall direction of the campaign. So it is not surprising that the top commanders did not have to be present in the operational areas. This is quite typical of guerilla warfare everywhere.

Second, to take your own example, the PLA was able to wipe out a better equipped, numerically superior foe just by disrupting its top-level command hierarchy. That demonstrates a highly skilled and experienced fighting force.

Here's a question: where would the communists have gained their military competence if they were not fighting the Japanese? The NRA was fighting the Japanese constantly, so why were the communists so much more combat effective shortly after WW2? Where, in your opinion, did they magically gain this competence?

Having large numbers mean nothing if you don't have the weapons and ammunition to equip them. It is well known that the Eighth Route Army suffered from severe equipment shortage, to the point of one rifle shared among several troops, and each rifle had only a couple of bullets. They had no artillery pieces, and extremely limited amounts of heavy weapons.

You need to stop making straw man arguments and making misleading assumptions. Nobody on this forum has claimed that the communists were the main fighting force.

The communist force grew larger toward the end of the war, but they numbered far fewer during the majority of the war. The Hundred Regiment Battle was the biggest offensive the Eighth Route Army could carry out, and the resulting retaliation decimated them. Mao rightly pointed out that they could not afford another Hundred Regiment Battle, which is why the communists stuck to their guerilla tactics thereafter.


Han Liancheng deserved great credit for the battle victory. that demonstrates a highly skilled undercover agent. i don’t know why you like to downplay the spies’ significance ? it would spoil the brilliance of CCP’s military accomplishment or make the victory less glorious or enjoyable ? anyway, subversion and espionage directed against the enemy is an integrant part of warfare.

the CCP’s senior commanders had been fighting against the KMT for years before 1937 ( the 1930s Encirclement Campaigns ). the Communist troops actively fought against the Nationalists in the Hubei-Shandong-Shaanxi region during the anti-Japanese war. they also fought some battles against puppet troops. that explains the combat experiences.

if the CCP didn't have the weapons and ammunition, they won’t build a large army. that’s why the CCP had large irregular forces. do read Zhu De’s January 1945 letter to Wedemeyer, and you will understand it. you think what was the CCP’s troop strength at the point of end of ww2 ?

the CCP asserted that they were the main fighting force in the anti-Japanese war.

the Communist's small-scale guerilla attacks made no significant contribution toward China’s war efforts by any means. they could have focused the small-scale attacks on the Jinpu or the Longhai railways, and that could have disrupted the Japanese’s supply lines. but if the Communists dared to attack the Jinpu railway, the Japanese would attack them. so that was not in the Communist's interest to disrupt the Japanese’s control of the Jinpu railway. have you read the Pan Hannian semi-biographies, and Peng Dehuai's account of The Hundred Regiment Battle ?

if you don’t understand or choose to ignore the Soviet factor ( the Soviet’s great help to CCP ) in the civil war, you will never be able to figure out the puzzle of the war.
 
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