Should China respect sanctions on Iran?

Martian

Martian

Senior Member
Rich Australian to tens of millions of poor Iranians: tough luck

For this year, Australia has the sixth highest per-capita income in the world. On the other hand, Iran ranks 88th on the per-capita income list. A typical Australian has a standard of living that is over 11 times higher than a typical Iranian (see newslink below).

To provide an idea of the contrast, a typical Australian faces the difficult choice of deciding whether to have juicy steak, prime rib, filet mignon, or lobster for dinner. In contrast, a typical Iranian struggles to obtain staple food like rice or wheat to live.

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"Australia $53,862
.
.
.
Iran $4,777"

I have provided newslinks to show that China, India, Germany, Russia, House Foreign Affairs Committee member Representative Keith Ellison (D-Minn.), Iranian Americans (e.g. usually strongly pro-American and anti-Iranian government), Iranian Nobel laureate (e.g. who won their prized distinction for anti-Iranian government views), and the famous American think-tank RAND corporation all say that additional Iran sanctions will hurt the poor people in Iran.

"bladerunner," I want to make sure that I understand you correctly. I have one final question.

Is it fair to say that a typical rich Australian is telling tens of millions of poor Iranians that "tough luck, Australia is strongly in favor of imposing more sanctions and hardship on Iran and its poor people"?
 
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bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: Rich Australian to tens of millions of poor Iranians: tough luck

Martian said:
For this year, Australia has the sixth highest per-capita income in the world. On the other hand, Iran ranks 88th on the per-capita income list. A typical Australian has a standard of living that is over 11 times higher than a typical Iranian (see newslink below).

To provide an idea of the contrast, a typical Australian faces the difficult choice of deciding whether to have juicy steak, prime rib, filet mignon, or lobster for dinner. In contrast, a typical Iranian struggles to obtain staple food like rice or wheat to live.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


"Australia $53,862
.
.
.
Iran $4,777"
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Careful as such extraneous points intend to annoy some forum members

I have provided newslinks to show that China, India, Germany, Russia, House Foreign Affairs Committee member Representative Keith Ellison (D-Minn.), Iranian Americans (e.g. usually strongly pro-American and anti-Iranian government), Iranian Nobel laureate (e.g. who won their prized distinction for anti-Iranian government views), and the famous American think-tank RAND corporation all say that additional Iran sanctions will hurt the poor people in Iran.
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I ve also provided you with a couple of Nobel Prize winners who were/are in favour in sanctions being applied to their respective countries,
In the end these antisanction promoters present and arguement that are merely gestimates with a few numbers chucked in to give an air of academia.

"bladerunner," I want to make sure that I understand you correctly. I have one final question.

Is it fair to say that a typical rich Australian is telling tens of millions of poor Iranians that "tough luck, Australia is strongly in favor of imposing more sanctions and hardship on Iran and its poor people"?
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Click to expand...

Im not Australian. I have given you and others, my opinion on what steps Iran can take to avoid any new sanctions, and perhaps a total removal of the old ones. Im quite surprised, and assuming this that such a methodical person as yourself has not read them.

However young fella i find your posts on other threads very interesting... (keep it up) while this current one, persistant and plesantly annoying because it reminds me of a couple of people I hold dear to me.:)
 
Martian

Martian

Senior Member
Re: Rich Australian to tens of millions of poor Iranians: tough luck

bladerunner said:
Im not Australian. I have given you and others, my opinion on what steps Iran can take to avoid any new sanctions, and perhaps a total removal of the old ones. Im quite surprised, and assuming this that such a methodical person as yourself has not read them.

However young fella i find your posts on other threads very interesting... (keep it up) while this current one, persistant and plesantly annoying because it reminds me of a couple of people I hold dear to me.:)
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You've been a good sport and I appreciate the time that you've taken to respond to my questions.

I'm glad to hear that you find my "posts on other threads [to be] very interesting." Unfortunately, due to scholastic and real-life demands, I will have to take a very long break soon. Geopolitics and advanced military weaponry are a fun hobby, but it is also more time-consuming than I expected.
 
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R

Red Moon

Junior Member
Ohhhhh so sorry for not reaching YOUR standards or are you just being sensitive to somebody briefly bringing up Chinas dirty laundry, and hiding it, by stipulating what constitutes a rational discussion? There also appears to be a double standard here as you havent taken Monty165 to task for brining up the subject of Israel eh?

Anyway it was a question directed to no-one else but Ravenshield for his remark about my lack of concern for the innocent and Im sure he's big enough to forgive any UNINTENDED mocking( as you so wrongfully put it), or take me to task. Out of respect for him, I'll aspologise to him privately if he so requests.
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THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT CHINA'S DIRTY LAUNDRY. If you want to have a thread about that, start it. I guarantee it will be closed because, AS YOU UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY, it is inflammatory. But in case you deny it, I will explain it.

In this forum, your political opinions are not "average". We all know there are others with views like yours, but, by and large, they abstain from the more political topics. Are you more "brave" than them? I don't think that's really the case. Maybe they are simply more respectful towards SDF than you are. It is likely that they see some things which you don't:
1. A "hot" discussion full of feelings and nothing else is useless. It quickly becomes a flaming contest.
2. Discussing political matters with people whose views are opposite requires much MORE EFFORT, because, for it to be fruitful, you need phrase your views carefully so as not to offend.
3. To make an impact, you also need to explain your views calmly, so that your "opponent" may understand what, for him/her, should be a different way of looking at things.

You praise Martian for being methodical. How about imitating him? How about putting some effort into each post, so that we don't need a 5 day marathon of hyperventilated posts. One should be enough to explain your views on a given topic. Your feelings are well known in SDF. THEY DO NOT NEED TO BE REPEATED INCESSANTLY. We will not forget.

Some days back, I accused you of being in "flaming mode". I was right. I hope you noticed that Finn McCool's thread has been closed. That was a very interesting topic. I had been waiting to add some comments to it. Do you realize that it was an "american topic", that Finn is an American, and that I did not, in my single post there, use the opportunity to talk about America's "dirty laundry". Such a thing would have been utterly stupid, because I would simply turn off everybody who might otherwise listen to my views. As to my political feelings, regarding the international world, I'm sure people have figured them out anyway.

As to your habit of taking a discussion all around the world: I think a thread on Sudan would be a fine thing. Should China support sanctions vs Sudan, for example. I have developed some views about this, which is why it angers me that you raise the matter so gratuitously.
I also have opinions about Nazi Germany, or about issues regarding Israel and Palestine. Each of these topics would require their own threads, or perhaps several threads each. None of them have actually been discussed here at any length. So I wonder why it is you raise these things as sort of "examples" in your discussions. You post these things as if it was somehow obvious that everybody will agree with your point of view. But there is lots of evidence to the contrary. The effect of this, each time you do it, to divert the discussion for several days to some other topic. The extraneous topic is not discussed rationally and fully, and the discussion on the topic of the thread becomes disorganized.

In my view, discussions on all these questions can be had, but it requires a little bit of discipline and self-moderation. I hope you exercize some of this, because I don't want THIS thread closed (or any other ones, for that matter).
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
bladerunner said:
My response was to Martian who high lighted a quote by Wen who expressed concern, suggesting that sanctions harmed the innocent of Iran. Because of Chinas track record I could have challenged his concerned and claimed it as bull shit.

Instead I merely suggested there were were no innocent parties because, Iranian populace chose to vote for the more disruptive Ajad instead of the more concilatory candidate.

Pre empting suggestions that it wasnt a valid line of thought to take I made parallels with Hitler/ Nazis to demonstrate a precedent where Hitler and the Nazis only scored somewhere in the mid 30% in elections, and yet in the immediate aftermath of WW2 most Germans were tarred with blame, whether directly involved or not. In the 60's 70's the case of Germany and the war was used to stir up patriotism in soccer matches between England and Germany. Even to this day there are wholsale precedents where the whole get blamed for the actions of a few. For which out of consideration I wont give examples of.
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you actually believe what Wen says? nobody care about iranian ppl, Wen certainly does not. what really matters is China's energy security. :rofl:

but of course its always nice to pretend that you actually "care"
 
Z

ZTZ99

Banned Idiot
Red Moon said:
THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT CHINA'S DIRTY LAUNDRY. If you want to have a thread about that, start it. I guarantee it will be closed because, AS YOU UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY, it is inflammatory. But in case you deny it, I will explain it.

In this forum, your political opinions are not "average". We all know there are others with views like yours, but, by and large, they abstain from the more political topics. Are you more "brave" than them? I don't think that's really the case. Maybe they are simply more respectful towards SDF than you are. It is likely that they see some things which you don't:
1. A "hot" discussion full of feelings and nothing else is useless. It quickly becomes a flaming contest.
2. Discussing political matters with people whose views are opposite requires much MORE EFFORT, because, for it to be fruitful, you need phrase your views carefully so as not to offend.
3. To make an impact, you also need to explain your views calmly, so that your "opponent" may understand what, for him/her, should be a different way of looking at things.

You praise Martian for being methodical. How about imitating him? How about putting some effort into each post, so that we don't need a 5 day marathon of hyperventilated posts. One should be enough to explain your views on a given topic. Your feelings are well known in SDF. THEY DO NOT NEED TO BE REPEATED INCESSANTLY. We will not forget.

Some days back, I accused you of being in "flaming mode". I was right. I hope you noticed that Finn McCool's thread has been closed. That was a very interesting topic. I had been waiting to add some comments to it. Do you realize that it was an "american topic", that Finn is an American, and that I did not, in my single post there, use the opportunity to talk about America's "dirty laundry". Such a thing would have been utterly stupid, because I would simply turn off everybody who might otherwise listen to my views. As to my political feelings, regarding the international world, I'm sure people have figured them out anyway.

As to your habit of taking a discussion all around the world: I think a thread on Sudan would be a fine thing. Should China support sanctions vs Sudan, for example. I have developed some views about this, which is why it angers me that you raise the matter so gratuitously.
I also have opinions about Nazi Germany, or about issues regarding Israel and Palestine. Each of these topics would require their own threads, or perhaps several threads each. None of them have actually been discussed here at any length. So I wonder why it is you raise these things as sort of "examples" in your discussions. You post these things as if it was somehow obvious that everybody will agree with your point of view. But there is lots of evidence to the contrary. The effect of this, each time you do it, to divert the discussion for several days to some other topic. The extraneous topic is not discussed rationally and fully, and the discussion on the topic of the thread becomes disorganized.

In my view, discussions on all these questions can be had, but it requires a little bit of discipline and self-moderation. I hope you exercize some of this, because I don't want THIS thread closed (or any other ones, for that matter).
Click to expand...

EXCELLENT post. You have said what I think so much more elegantly and graciously than I would have said myself.
 
R

Red Moon

Junior Member
nobody care about iranian ppl, Wen certainly does not. what really matters is China's energy security.
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If "the people" are punished, the state becomes weaker. Dissension will grow, and the soil will be readied for subversion.
There is a certain logic to this notion of sanctions. In actual experience, sanctions very often are accompanied by warfare and/or subversion, or else they are a prelude to such things. There are lots of examples of this.

I cannot read Wen's mind; I certainly cannot speak about his feelings. Fortunately, his feelings are irrelevant. It is in China's interests to defend "the people" of Iran, just like it is in the interests of the Chinese state to improve the livelihood of China's people, to reduce the wealth gap, etc.
 
R

ravenshield936

Banned Idiot
ZTZ99 said:
Oh you mean the same unruly demonstrators who lacked any form of grace or respect for Olympic tradition and soiled themselves and their own country by trying to dowse or snatch the flame from the runners? They got what was coming to them. In spades. THAT'S "tough love" for ya.
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I agree with ZTZ99. And it's tough love to attack a disabled unarmed athlete in a wheelchair? And to punch and grab her?
2008_olympic_torch_relay_paris_jin_jing_31.jpg


Talk about restraints. For all the freedom and democracy those people cry for, they can't even demonstrate the most basic of human rights and proper respect to a disabled, unarmed woman. It totally shows how much these people are worth.

You want to know why I said she got assaulted? google it up.
 
bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Red Moon said:
I hope you noticed that Finn McCool's thread has been closed. That was a very interesting topic. I had been waiting to add some comments to it. Do you realize that it was an "american topic", that Finn is an American, and that I did not, in my single post there, use the opportunity to talk about America's "dirty laundry". .
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:eek:Points taken and I will try my best to act upon them. Yes I do have a bad habit of introducing extraneous matters. Most of the time I dont think I do it to be deliberately inflamatory, but more to support a point. Because issues of a political matter aren't usually tolerated by the mods my thinking was by being extremly brief, or lightweight by your standards, the mods would tolerate it. I dont possess the expressive skills such as yourself which is why i may resort to the above mentioned habit or come across as being arrogant etc It also annoys me that some people would use any opportunity presented to them by people other than myself to continuously blame the West for their humiliation.

Yes it is a pity that the mods closed Finns post. However I dont consider myself to blame on this occassion. It was brought about by another member taking exception to what aI consider a acceptable remark about America keeping the peace in the world. (We certainly know that after WW2.the world was a boiling pot of unsettling insurgencys, with no other country having the financial resources to handle the job of sorting it out, the task fell on america whether we liked it or not.) Yes it was open to challenge but the said refuter went over the top and started country bashing etc etc, which is why Popeye closed it. Meanwhile I hope you have noted that the same person has dragged elements from Finns closed threat to continue being disruptive over here.
 
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