Should China respect sanctions on Iran?

ravenshield936 said:

Martian you can really keep trying, but have you ever seen anyone convince a neocon successfully that they're wrong? Or that their warmongering ways can be simply changed even when all the evidence were shown? They just don't give up until they force their ways down other people's throats and introduce American democracy to them. To them, the rest of the world is always wrong if the world disagree with US. You can try and keep throwing evidence, but you'll only receive rejections and dismissals. They never really cared about the others as long as they get their way.


I just can't believe how Bladerunner can totally disregard the living of the millions of Iranian civilians. Normal economic sanctions only hurt the civilian population the most, and I can't believe how he says millions of Iranians deserve this coming to them. That totally sent a shiver down my spine.

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Martian said:

Let's look at this issue from a different view. House Foreign Affairs Committee member Representative Keith Ellison (D-Minn.), Iranian Americans (e.g. usually strongly pro-American and anti-Iranian government), Iranian Nobel laureate (e.g. who won their prized distinction for anti-Iranian government views), and the famous American think-tank RAND corporation all say that additional Iran sanctions will hurt the poor people in Iran.

Are they right?

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Re. Ellison:, I would have thought for someone that serves on the foreign affairs sub committee,for the Middle East and S Asia, he would have better grasp of the over all geo polictics in the area in relation to his country. The fact that Guys a liberal democrat, spending most of his working life engaged in civic and affairs that directly affect the community probably explains it. Also Ellison wanted Bush ( the person for whom you and I have great admiration for) impeached for crying out aloud.
Actually personalities aside ( he's a liberal democrat) I have nothing against the guy. I just believe the suffering of a few is the better choice than the much more widespread disaster that would happen when Iran (there's enough anecdotal evidence) develops nucs.
As for the effectiveness of sanctions,I guess its just a matter of opinion. Lets not forget Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma (who is still very pro sanction), or Mandela during his day, calling for the continuance of sanctions on his country

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As for Iran the ball is in Ajads court. by refering to the article I posted on subsidies to Monty (post 307)

you can see how he is able to prevent the sanctions from drastically effecting the poor with two strokes of the pen.
Better still he can put his nuclear power ambitions on the backburner until everything sorts itself out. After all theres no urgent need for Iran to require nuclear energy as I explained to xwydx earlier. In case you missed it ..............

Quote:
Ajad is developing nuclear power for the people, he is making electricity more affordable for Iranians, where is the bad in that?

1/Nothing, and no-one is preventing him from doing so, except he is determined to produce enriched uranium, far and above whats required for power generation.

other than nuclear power Iran has plenty of other options
What is the Cheapest Source of Energy? An Engineer Reviews the Options | Scienceray


eg A study in Australia which may have some relevance to Iran has shown the cheapest source of energy over a 15yr period is wind,coal, solar and gas in that order.

BY the way outside of oil, coal is one of Irans most abundent minerals, associate that with the latest type of coal fired power stations that"Martian" has so kindly enlightened us with and things would be "honky dory" for Iran in the energy requirements for a long time to come . It can also conseverve its own oil and gas for its own use by lessening exports to China meanwhile turning its vast arms industry complex and using its very talented populace into manufacturing items for export to compensate.

Futhermore not only is Iran in the top15 mineral possessing countries, which are seriously underdeveloped(source wiki) shes also the worlds second largest holder of natural gas reserves after Russia. with careful husbanding and controlled exports, together with coal and oil, she can meet her energy needs for decades to come. Theres certainly no urgency to develop nuclear power.Meanwhile she would be able to get all the help she needs to develop her country from the west, with West and ending up becoming a very wealthy country, without all this aggro.

If she was genuinely interested in wanting nuclear power for her people, surely it would be better to bide ones time and get the best nuclear power station avaliable, instead shes got littlechoice other than a Russian one of uncertain quality??

IMO when we realistically look at the big picture its a battle of wills between "Pitbull" (montys words) America and a "Predatory" (my opinion) China.

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ravenshield936 said:

I just can't believe how Bladerunner can totally disregard the living of the millions of Iranian civilians. Normal economic sanctions only hurt the civilian population the most, and I can't believe how he says millions of Iranians deserve this coming to them. That totally sent a shiver down my spine.

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montyp165 said:

It's no different with the apologists towards Israel's blockade of Gaza, in any case the important thing is standing up against indiscriminate punishments by ideologues.

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I hope you felt the same thing when night after night one could see the plight of the people in Southern Sudan as a result of Chinas support for a reigme bent on genocide. or the unruly behaviour by Chinese citizens against demonstraters against such support for Sudan, during the Olympic torch relay.

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Red Moon said:

So @bladerunner: are we now supposed to go through two or three days of discussion about Sudan???

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Nope.

Why the hell are you raising all these extraneous issues? YES, THIS IS DISRUPTIVE AS HELL to any rational discussion.

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Ohhhhh so sorry for not reaching YOUR standards or are you just being sensitive to somebody briefly bringing up Chinas dirty laundry, and hiding it, by stipulating what constitutes a rational discussion? There also appears to be a double standard here as you havent taken Monty165 to task for brining up the subject of Israel eh?

Anyway it was a question directed to no-one else but Ravenshield for his remark about my lack of concern for the innocent and Im sure he's big enough to forgive any UNINTENDED mocking( as you so wrongfully put it), or take me to task. Out of respect for him, I'll aspologise to him privately if he so requests.

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bladerunner said:

I hope you felt the same thing when night after night one could see the plight of the people in Southern Sudan as a result of Chinas support for a reigme bent on genocide. or the unruly behaviour by Chinese citizens against demonstraters against such support for Sudan, during the Olympic torch relay.

As for the solution to prevent any more misery inflicted upon the poor in Iran, please read my reply to Martian, if you hadnt already.

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bladerunner said:

Red Moon said:

Nope.

Ohhhhh so sorry for not reaching YOUR standards or are you just being sensitive to somebody briefly bringing up Chinas dirty laundry, and hiding it, by stipulating what constitutes a rational discussion? There also appears to be a double standard here as you havent taken Monty165 to task for brining up the subject of Israel eh?

Anyway it was a question directed to no-one else but Ravenshield for his remark about my lack of concern for the innocent and Im sure he's big enough to forgive any UNINTENDED mocking( as you so wrongfully put it), or take me to task. Out of respect for him, I'll aspologise to him privately if he so requests.

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What's the point of an apology coated with arrogance?
"China's dirty laundry"? It's not the first time you've brought it up, and also serves no rational connection.

You have yet to directly address what I've said, but instead just threw China on the table as if this would magically make my accusation(misunderstood or genuine) disappear or answered.

And to show your "concern" of the Iranian civilians whom you deemed "guilty of all the "crimes" their government has committed, what do you suggest?

Lastly, if you can brand an entire nation of people as guilty, I don't see how you cant brand entire 1.3 billion people guilty of other things. Or any other countries.
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Lastly, by your logic, the people should suffer for what their government did. I guess that made you very fair and just

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ravenshield936 said:

bladerunner said:

Red Moon said:

What's the point of an apology coated with arrogance?

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Very True

"China's dirty laundry"? It's not the first time you've brought it up, and also serves no rational connection.

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To highlight Chinas insecerity about the innocent in Iran, even allowing for the restrictions of what one can talk about on this forum, I dont recall any expression of horror by Chinese members in this forum, overt or otherwise. If the finger does get pointed it just gets pointed right back, as if what the West did in the past provides some justification.

You have yet to directly address what I've said, but instead just threw China on the table as if this would magically make my accusation(misunderstood or genuine) disappear or answered.

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No I also directed you to a post where I offered a solution on how this unnecessary pain for the poor can be avoided.

And to show your "concern" of the Iranian civilians whom you deemed "guilty of all the "crimes" their government has committed, what do you suggest?

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See My previous reply

Lastly, if you can brand an entire nation of people as guilty, I don't see how you cant brand entire 1.3 billion people guilty of other things. Or any other countries.
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Lastly, by your logic, the people should suffer for what their government did. I guess that made you very fair and just

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I never claimed to be fair and just. However Im now going to point out that China is very good at using that sort of logic. "So whats good for the goose is good for the Gander".

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bladerunner said:

or the unruly behaviour by Chinese citizens against demonstraters against such support for Sudan, during the Olympic torch relay.

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