Shotguns in the PLA

rhino123

rhino123

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RickHunter said:
History~
When Mauser Military Pistol first used in China, it was regarded as a lovely weapon. From then on, Chinese preferred SMG and pistol better than shotgun in combat. Shotguns in China are used as riot gun, and PAP SWAT never use shotgun to kill someone.In most case, SWAT needn't do anything because an ordinary policeman made it by a Type 54 pistol.What's more, their sniper usually use Type 79 SMG or Type 81 rifle instead of SVD or Type 88 ...ORZ
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RickHunter said:
Here is a pic.
The 8th route army, and the PLA, used Mauser until they got TT33 and PPSH.
[qimg]http://www.btv.com.cn/btvweb/images/2008-11/27/xin_06110527153615361096.jpg[/qimg]
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Can you provide your links? I mean credible link, as to that pic that you have shown are from a very old movie. Plus at that time even when the Chinese used the mausers, it might not be because they loved the weapon, it might be because this is the only pistol available to them.

As to PAP SWAT (Special Police) never use shotgun to kill anybody... do you also have references to that or insider info. I don't think what the Special Police do is being shown out in the public. They might just say something like the PAP shot and kill a terrorists or things with the same effect, but I don't think any papers will go to such length as saying what type of weapon was used to kill the terrorists. And so it is downright arrogant to claim that PAP SWAT never kill anyone with a shotgun.
 
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MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
raider1001 said:
Never heard of Chinese actually loved Mauser enough to use it as a primary CQB weapon. According to US army field reports, the Chinese actually preferred grenades over SMG in close range battle, because like the Japanese the Chinese like to launch sneak attacks at night, and grenade don't usually give the attacker's position away until it exploded in someone's face.

The early PLA assault tactics seems like a mix of Russian and Japanese doctrine, in which a large mass of grenadiers and sub machine gunners tried to infiltrate a position and then use the devastating close range firepower to drive the enemy away. Such attacks often have short duration but are extremely devastating. I don't see how the shotgun can replace SMG/grenade combo in this assault tactic.
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They don't loved Mauser you said? Wait till you see the collection of "broom handle" that were produced at various strongholds - warlords and nationalists and commies alike - and the same said for crude SMGs that utilize the core components of the Mauser automatic pistol. If that's not enough, war movies depicting the periods before 1949 would've the Mauser as staple prop for any non-Japanese character.

Such collection is on permanent exhibit at the Beijing's military museum. You can take pictures, but the light condition won't favor those w/o D-SLR and tripod.

And the early PLA assault doctrine borne from their lack of heavies while their enemies had those - get close, hit hard and fast, and hopefully their foes won't want to risk blue-on-blue to drop heavy firepower on them...doubtful on the last part though, since the Japanese never care about danger close or blue-on-blue, and the KMT forces, if determined, won't care about that either so long they could "drag a few more commies to the grave with them".
 

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raider1001

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MwRYum said:
They don't loved Mauser you said? Wait till you see the collection of "broom handle" that were produced at various strongholds - warlords and nationalists and commies alike - and the same said for crude SMGs that utilize the core components of the Mauser automatic pistol. If that's not enough, war movies depicting the periods before 1949 would've the Mauser as staple prop for any non-Japanese character.

Such collection is on permanent exhibit at the Beijing's military museum. You can take pictures, but the light condition won't favor those w/o D-SLR and tripod.
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If PLA really loved Mauser, then they will mass issue that to shock troops instead of the US made Thompson SMG. I never read any reports that the PLA assault troops ever used Mauser in large quantity or in any specialized role, but the amount of shock and damage done by Thompson or PPSh equipped PLA shock troops are the stuff of legends. IMO Mauser is just a over glorified PDW for famous generals but rarely used by front line troops.
 
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rhino123

rhino123

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MwRYum said:
They don't loved Mauser you said? Wait till you see the collection of "broom handle" that were produced at various strongholds - warlords and nationalists and commies alike - and the same said for crude SMGs that utilize the core components of the Mauser automatic pistol. If that's not enough, war movies depicting the periods before 1949 would've the Mauser as staple prop for any non-Japanese character.

Such collection is on permanent exhibit at the Beijing's military museum. You can take pictures, but the light condition won't favor those w/o D-SLR and tripod.

And the early PLA assault doctrine borne from their lack of heavies while their enemies had those - get close, hit hard and fast, and hopefully their foes won't want to risk blue-on-blue to drop heavy firepower on them...doubtful on the last part though, since the Japanese never care about danger close or blue-on-blue, and the KMT forces, if determined, won't care about that either so long they could "drag a few more commies to the grave with them".
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Movies depicting Chinese forces uses mausers or Chinese made variants are not prove enough for whether the Chinese like or don't like mausers. As I have stated in my previous post, maybe that was the only pistols available to them at that time.

And to add to that, maybe that is the only pistols that the Chinese could buy cheaply enough to arm their soldiers, or that was the most reliable pistols that the chinese had at that time.

As to why SMG follows to the basic components of the mauser might be because, the Chinese had lots of mausers and experience in building the mauser, thus the SMG would utilise what they have learned, this is all a very standard moves. Please be reminded that the Chinese at large at that time are not very modern and had modern technology or equipment, or are they very experience in making automatic weapons, thus the mausers could be a very high tech and stable people for their soldiers.

And because of the vast number of this weapons being make, some of them or lots of them would moves to local warlords in their strongholds... especially prior, during and after WWII when huge number of these weapons are available and easily.

Thus it is nothing surprising that strongholds and warlords are armed with them. That doesn't necessary mean the warlords or their troops loved this weapon. It might be because of the availability of such weapon and warlords aren't exactly massively rich or with that wide a contact with the outside world to buy advance or other weaponries from other people.

Same was to be said of the commies and the nationalists...
 
MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
True and that'd probably a case of "make do with what you got", and then China got properly introduced with SMG firstly from the Germans during those brief years of aiding the KMT in building "German-style division", then the Americans aided the KMT in the war effort with "American-style division" equipped with Tommy gun and grease gun; Soviet's comes later with the PLA...and along with local copies, which the Beijing museum has them too.

Still, those only applied to outfits that under the central command, so outfits not of such privilege and warlords have to make do with irregulars, and the Red Army did what they did the best, scavenge and capture from their foes for all their gears.

And on a footnote, I don't recall seeing any shotgun on exhibit at the Beijing military museum - they got almost just about anything but no shotgun, neither the imported nor any locally produced copies. So I guess Chinese is quite a stranger to shotguns until their police adopted some and Norinco began to make their Remington 870 knockoffs.
 
RickHunter

RickHunter

New Member
Information from Baidupedia in Chinese, so let's turn back to shotgun(Ah, it's me who first mentioned mauser...I'm so sorry.) The history of PLA make them prefer weapons like SMG better than shotgun, that's my opinion.



西方不亮东方亮，所谓瑕不掩瑜，驳壳枪真正被使用者所喜爱的是在中国，20世纪上半叶的中国正处在水深火热中，各派军阀相互征战，急需要武器进行作战，而当时的日本控制西方向中国出口军火，但驳壳枪作为手枪则不在此列，因此驳壳枪成为各派武装的首选。 在中国反帝反封建和反侵略斗争中人民武装也大量的夺取敌人的武器来武装自己，因此人民军队里也大量装备这种驳壳枪，打响南昌起义第一枪的起义部队总指挥朱德用的就是一支驳壳枪。当年有不少中国枪手携带两把以上的驳壳枪，一只带木制枪套，另一只将准星磨平，插在腰带上，便于拔枪射击。例如，杨靖宇将军殉国时，身上携带了三把驳壳枪，一把9毫米长身管（长瞄匣子），一把9毫米标准身管（大号匣子），一把7.63毫米短身管（小号匣子）。 　　最有意思的是，中国人想出了一个非常简便的方法，不仅解决了枪口上跳难题，而且将它转化为全自动速射的扫射优势－－枪手右手持握驳壳枪，将枪机扳至速射档，手心向上举枪，伸向左前方，扣动扳机，枪口的上跳作用使驳壳枪从枪手左前方扫射至右前方；手心向下举枪时从右前方扫射至左前方；左手持枪时完全相反－－这真是点石成金、化腐朽为神奇的神来之笔！ 　　对盒子炮代表的情感， 中国人比其他人应该更深， 因为中国使用的盒子炮， 在数量上绝对超过任何其他一个国家。冯玉祥将军甚至用驳壳枪装备了一个手枪旅，该旅每人两把驳壳枪、一把大刀。有人估计， 在中国起码曾有过40万把以上的盒子炮， 如果毛瑟生产一百万把， 其他仿造的50万来算， 中国便占了几近三分之一。 在一次世界大战结束， 德国战败后， 因凡尔赛和约的规定， 大量的盒子炮在德国被销毁， 更减少了存在的数量。
 
rhino123

rhino123

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VIP Professional
RickHunter said:
Information from Baidupedia in Chinese, so let's turn back to shotgun(Ah, it's me who first mentioned mauser...I'm so sorry.) The history of PLA make them prefer weapons like SMG better than shotgun, that's my opinion.



西方不亮东方亮，所谓瑕不掩瑜，驳壳枪真正被使用者所喜爱的是在中国，20世纪上半叶的中国正处在水深火热中，各派军阀相互征战，急需要武器进行作战，而当时的日本控制西方向中国出口军火，但驳壳枪作为手枪则不在此列，因此驳壳枪成为各派武装的首选。 在中国反帝反封建和反侵略斗争中人民武装也大量的夺取敌人的武器来武装自己，因此人民军队里也大量装备这种驳壳枪，打响南昌起义第一枪的起义部队总指挥朱德用的就是一支驳壳枪。当年有不少中国枪手携带两把以上的驳壳枪，一只带木制枪套，另一只将准星磨平，插在腰带上，便于拔枪射击。例如，杨靖宇将军殉国时，身上携带了三把驳壳枪，一把9毫米长身管（长瞄匣子），一把9毫米标准身管（大号匣子），一把7.63毫米短身管（小号匣子）。 　　最有意思的是，中国人想出了一个非常简便的方法，不仅解决了枪口上跳难题，而且将它转化为全自动速射的扫射优势－－枪手右手持握驳壳枪，将枪机扳至速射档，手心向上举枪，伸向左前方，扣动扳机，枪口的上跳作用使驳壳枪从枪手左前方扫射至右前方；手心向下举枪时从右前方扫射至左前方；左手持枪时完全相反－－这真是点石成金、化腐朽为神奇的神来之笔！ 　　对盒子炮代表的情感， 中国人比其他人应该更深， 因为中国使用的盒子炮， 在数量上绝对超过任何其他一个国家。冯玉祥将军甚至用驳壳枪装备了一个手枪旅，该旅每人两把驳壳枪、一把大刀。有人估计， 在中国起码曾有过40万把以上的盒子炮， 如果毛瑟生产一百万把， 其他仿造的50万来算， 中国便占了几近三分之一。 在一次世界大战结束， 德国战败后， 因凡尔赛和约的规定， 大量的盒子炮在德国被销毁， 更减少了存在的数量。
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As shown in the passage, the most important sentence is not the first sentence. "西方不亮东方亮，所谓瑕不掩瑜，驳壳枪真正被使用者所喜爱的是在中国" for the benefit of those who don't read Chinese, it basically said that Chinese are the real lover for this type of pistols (I think that is mauser).

What is more interesting and my point of view all along is this part of the passage, "各派军阀相互征战，急需要武器进行作战，而当时的日本控制西方向中国出口军火，但驳壳枪作为手枪则不在此列，因此驳壳枪成为各派武装的首选。 在中国反帝反封建和反侵略斗争中人民武装也大量的夺取敌人的武器来武装自己" which basically mean that Japan control the west from exporting weaponries to China, except for mauser since it was a pistol. If this is true, then it only further strenghten my point. China had no choice because they couldn't get any imports from any other country in regards to weaponries and so they have to use whatever they can get their hands on and in large quantities.

All the other examples such as great shooters and stuff like that are just people who basically well learned in shooting the mauser. And why are they well learned in that particular weapon? It might be because there really is no other weapon to use.

Now back to the Shotguns.

Chinese modern military basically followed to the doctrine. I am wondering if the Russia utilize a lot of shotguns in their military? I am not well verse with the Russian military and special forces, maybe someone of a greater knowledge in this would give some insight... and by looking into the Russian military doctrine from WWII up to around Korean War, would we actually understand why CHinese do not use alot (or not at all) shotguns.

I believe this is not a preference of SMG to shotguns as both served different thing and have their own advantages as well as disadvantages. And it all lies in the doctrine and how or what the CHinese infantry's training are based on.
 
Semi-Lobster

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
rhino123 said:
As shown in the passage, the most important sentence is not the first sentence. "西方不亮东方亮,所谓瑕不掩瑜,驳壳枪真正被使用者所喜爱的是在中国" for the benefit of those who don't read Chinese, it basically said that Chinese are the real lover for this type of pistols (I think that is mauser).

What is more interesting and my point of view all along is this part of the passage, "各派军阀相互征战,急需要武器进行作战,而当时的日本控制西方向中国出口军火,但驳壳枪作为手枪则不在此列,因此驳壳枪成为各派武装的首选。 在中国反帝反封建和反侵略斗争中人民武装也大量的夺取敌人的武器来武装自己" which basically mean that Japan control the west from exporting weaponries to China, except for mauser since it was a pistol. If this is true, then it only further strenghten my point. China had no choice because they couldn't get any imports from any other country in regards to weaponries and so they have to use whatever they can get their hands on and in large quantities.

All the other examples such as great shooters and stuff like that are just people who basically well learned in shooting the mauser. And why are they well learned in that particular weapon? It might be because there really is no other weapon to use.

Now back to the Shotguns.

Chinese modern military basically followed to the doctrine. I am wondering if the Russia utilize a lot of shotguns in their military? I am not well verse with the Russian military and special forces, maybe someone of a greater knowledge in this would give some insight... and by looking into the Russian military doctrine from WWII up to around Korean War, would we actually understand why CHinese do not use alot (or not at all) shotguns.

I believe this is not a preference of SMG to shotguns as both served different thing and have their own advantages as well as disadvantages. And it all lies in the doctrine and how or what the CHinese infantry's training are based on.
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Russia has a long history of continual shotgun production, Tula has been making them for over 100 years now but they are civilian hunting shotguns though. For the Russians shotguns are mostly used by police and MVD (internal security). During the war there were obviously partisans around and they were often armed with whatever they could get, including shotguns. A good example would be the KS-23 riot shotgun, a 4 gauge mammoth of a shotgun that can be used to launch tear gas, grenades, buckshot and a gigantic steel slug.

As for overall Chinese experience with shotguns, a notable event would be the Malay Crisis, where British troops found that their Browning Auto-5 and Mossberg 500 shotguns performed very well in jungle and forest environment since they found it very easy to blast through vegetation with it.
 
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raider1001

New Member
rhino123 said:
Chinese modern military basically followed to the doctrine. I am wondering if the Russia utilize a lot of shotguns in their military? I am not well verse with the Russian military and special forces, maybe someone of a greater knowledge in this would give some insight... and by looking into the Russian military doctrine from WWII up to around Korean War, would we actually understand why CHinese do not use alot (or not at all) shotguns.

I believe this is not a preference of SMG to shotguns as both served different thing and have their own advantages as well as disadvantages. And it all lies in the doctrine and how or what the CHinese infantry's training are based on.
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This also brings me back to my point. The Soviets love to mass equip their own troops with SMG during World War II, and if the legends are true, sometimes an entire division armed with nothing but SMG, and this gave the Soviet infantry unparalleled close range firepower. Given that early Chinese infantry tactics relied heavily on close range combat, maybe the Chinese took a cue from them?

During the Korean War, the standard Chinese assault procedure are grenadiers followed by SMG gunners then rifleman. The grenadiers first sneak into an enemy position and lob grenades into foxholes and bunkers, and immediately behind the grenadiers the SMG gunners tries to suppress enemy positions and kill anyone who dares to poke their head out of their holes. The rifleman came in last to mop up anyone who are left behind. I'm just thinking where does shotgun fit in an assault tactic like this?
 
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Semi-Lobster

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
raider1001 said:
This also brings me back to my point. The Soviets love to mass equip their own troops with SMG during World War II, and if the legends are true, sometimes an entire division armed with nothing but SMG, and this gave the Soviet infantry unparalleled close range firepower. Given that early Chinese infantry tactics relied heavily on close range combat, maybe the Chinese took a cue from them?

During the Korean War, the standard Chinese assault procedure are grenadiers followed by SMG gunners then rifleman. The grenadiers first sneak into an enemy position and lob grenades into foxholes and bunkers, and immediately behind the grenadiers the SMG gunners tries to suppress enemy positions and kill anyone who dares to poke their head out of their holes. The rifleman came in last to mop up anyone who are left behind. I'm just thinking where does shotgun fit in an assault tactic like this?
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I think we've found the key to why the shotgun is absent in PLA doctrine, throughout its history the PLA has fought organized, standing armies of other states, many of which at the time could be considered better equipped and more centralized than the PLA itself. Throughout the 20th century and into the 21st century, the shotgun has shined the most in urban combat, jungles, naval expeditions and general counter-insurgencies, where an organized army fights a scattered enemy, not in plains and fields or even hills and mountains but places where the opponent can 'disappear' and 'reappear'. The PLA has never really fought an extremely intense, organized guerilla opponent nor has the PLAN ever had to deal with mass boarding and close quarter ship to ship fighting. Even Russia which until recently never really used shotguns, began using the semi-automatic Saiga 12 in actual combat in Chechnya, a break-away from old Soviet era doctrine.
 
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