Shotguns in the PLA

MwRYum said:

Well to be fair, there ain't any picture that has PLA soldiers, even their spec-op forces, weld a shotgun, and neither do the navel taskgroup that deployed to the Somalia coast has shotgun in their arsenal - at least I didn't see them displayed during the open house late last year.

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Yah, that's the basis of why I asked my question, you see PAP, police and even security guards with shotguns (like was already mentioned, typically the Type 97-1) but never with the PLA or PLAN which made me wonder if the PLA even issues them. So from what I understand in this thread is that the PLA does have access to them and probably has them in reserve but never actually uses them?

Semi-Lobster said:

Yah, that's the basis of why I asked my question, you see PAP, police and even security guards with shotguns (like was already mentioned, typically the Type 97-1) but never with the PLA or PLAN which made me wonder if the PLA even issues them. So from what I understand in this thread is that the PLA does have access to them and probably has them in reserve but never actually uses them?

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Been looking through the net on this topic... and it is true that I don't see any picture or photo... or even much text on whether PLA are armed with shotguns except for a small passage in this website:

1)
2)

I quote from one of them,

http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-sg/HP9-1%E7%8D%B5%E6%A7%8D said:

北方工业HP9-1霰弹枪是50年代初期问世的美制雷明登（Remington）870的仿制型。870是有史以来最受欢迎的压动式枪机霰弹枪之一，最早的870只是单纯的猎枪，然而，在美国海军陆战队于1966年购买了数千把870之后，870开始成为战争武器。在越战期间，870立下了辉煌的战绩。1990年代，北方工业开始制造中国版的870，并重新将其命名为北方工业HP9-1式。它目前是人民解放军步兵的标准公发霰弹枪。

此枪的枪管长度是356 毫米（超过14 英吋），并有经过防止生锈的磷化处理。虽然此枪很明显地仿制了雷明登870，但是设计分布得太广泛使其不再受专利保护，而且大多数部件可以自由转换。由于是仿制了雷明登870，所以同样在底部装弹、弹壳从机匣右侧排出、管状弹仓在枪管下部、双动式结构、内部击锤设计、枪管内延长式枪机闭锁。部份零件亦可与雷明登1100及雷明登11-87互换

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Well the passage mainly stated a brief history fro Remington 870 shotgun. China's Norinco HP9-1 is basically a copy of this weapon. However as seen in the bolded statement, it stated that the HP9-1 was the standard issued shotgun to the PLA - infantry units.

I am not sure how accurate these two sites are, but if it is true, then PLA did use shotguns... might not be very widespread because of the near to zero photo on the any troops equipped with Shotguns.

rhino123 said:

Been looking through the net on this topic... and it is true that I don't see any picture or photo... or even much text on whether PLA are armed with shotguns except for a small passage in this website:

1)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

2)

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I quote from one of them,



Well the passage mainly stated a brief history fro Remington 870 shotgun. China's Norinco HP9-1 is basically a copy of this weapon. However as seen in the bolded statement, it stated that the HP9-1 was the standard issued shotgun to the PLA - infantry units.

I am not sure how accurate these two sites are, but if it is true, then PLA did use shotguns... might not be very widespread because of the near to zero photo on the any troops equipped with Shotguns.

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The Baidu site appears to about the video game Battlefield 2, the 3D models are all from the game and I think we all know that China doesn't use the French Eryx ATGM.

The 2nd article is wikipedia which is downright unreliable and gives no source for being used by the PLA so we have no idea where this information comes from.

rhino123 said:

Been looking through the net on this topic... and it is true that I don't see any picture or photo... or even much text on whether PLA are armed with shotguns except for a small passage in this website:

1)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

2)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I quote from one of them,



Well the passage mainly stated a brief history fro Remington 870 shotgun. China's Norinco HP9-1 is basically a copy of this weapon. However as seen in the bolded statement, it stated that the HP9-1 was the standard issued shotgun to the PLA - infantry units.

I am not sure how accurate these two sites are, but if it is true, then PLA did use shotguns... might not be very widespread because of the near to zero photo on the any troops equipped with Shotguns.

Click to expand...

Neither one can be taken for truth, and I'd prefer pictured articles from China's own printed publications over stuff on net, which has pretty much nothing to back them up most of the time.

The Norinco did made their copy of Remington 870 shotgun and some modified versions of it, with the M1913 rail accessories system as shown in exhibition this year. But while the gun and its derivatives used by the PAP and some major cities' police forces (those that got the budget to equip its police to a higher standard), and some of those police SWAT teams even utilize the M1913 rail accessories systems on their guns, that never the case for the PLA. Plus the PLA don't use M1913 rail accessories systems or its equivalents if there's such.

Semi-Lobster said:

As we all know, China produces many different types of shotguns, mostly based on existing US shotguns such as the Remington 870 or 1100. The most common seen shotgun in China seems to be the Type 97 shotgun, a pump-action, magazine fed shotgun based on the 870 but I've never seen them ever used by the PLA. I've seen pictures of local police and security guards armed with them but never anybody in the actual army. While even in the US military shotguns are uncommon compared to other firearms, they are still used and not ever considered out of the ordinary for a soldier to be issued one. In the navy, shotguns are often kept onboard in case of boarding.

So my question is, do any service personnel in the PLA actually use shotguns? And if not why?

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I am amazed that PLA forces operating off Somalia are not using shotguns. But the PLA is not engaged in any conflicts where they might need shotguns in large numbers if at all.

The shotgun is probably the most versatile short range close quarter weapon out there. The ammo of the shotgun is great standard buck good for riot control and anti-personnel, slug great for blowing out door hinges and locks plus it will definitely knock someone with body armor down, non-lethal bean bags if you don't want to kill anyone and if you can get the newly developed shotgun explosive mini grenade.

Semi-Lobster said:

The Baidu site appears to about the video game Battlefield 2, the 3D models are all from the game and I think we all know that China doesn't use the French Eryx ATGM.

The 2nd article is wikipedia which is downright unreliable and gives no source for being used by the PLA so we have no idea where this information comes from.

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MwRYum said:

Neither one can be taken for truth, and I'd prefer pictured articles from China's own printed publications over stuff on net, which has pretty much nothing to back them up most of the time.

The Norinco did made their copy of Remington 870 shotgun and some modified versions of it, with the M1913 rail accessories system as shown in exhibition this year. But while the gun and its derivatives used by the PAP and some major cities' police forces (those that got the budget to equip its police to a higher standard), and some of those police SWAT teams even utilize the M1913 rail accessories systems on their guns, that never the case for the PLA. Plus the PLA don't use M1913 rail accessories systems or its equivalents if there's such.

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Hmm... now that you mentioned it and I relook at the baidu website and... yeah it look unreal. Sorry to have posted such unreliable links.

Anyway, I think for the PLA infantry units, their main roles might not required them to need the shotguns... their Type 95 assault rifle is enough and for many of their commandoes counterpart (SOF, recon unit, etc) might not need shotgun too...

As what ABC had pointed out, shotgun is a good weapon, very versatile... but as for non-lethality, that might not be what the PLA or PLAN marines are looking for. That is what most SWAT and police and PAP will need but not the PLA.

More like traditionally Chinese military don't use shotguns - their teachers to modern warfare weren't much of shotgun users themselves: with the German means they adopted the SMG to the close-quarter combat question; Japanese didn't use shotguns, not even the SMGs in the Chinese war-zone (Imperial Japanese army is largely WWI standard because they're poor), they loved bayonets and swords; the Soviets gave them SMGs and AK-47 assault rifles, so no shotguns too.

Combat shotguns, like high-grade sniper rifles, are stuff caught on first by the police when they make exchanges with outside world, then began to adopt for themselves...to be honest though, the current doctrine of the PLA doesn't leave room for either weapon - China still has no high-grade sniper rifle that'd comparable to the Western world products (what has been seen were all private venture), and no shotgun pressed into PLA as yet. Y'know, if they'd press shotguns into service, or even at the tryout phase, they'd let the HK garrison try out first and thus far, that didn't happen.

History~
When Mauser Military Pistol first used in China, it was regarded as a lovely weapon. From then on, Chinese preferred SMG and pistol better than shotgun in combat. Shotguns in China are used as riot gun, and PAP SWAT never use shotgun to kill someone.In most case, SWAT needn't do anything because an ordinary policeman made it by a Type 54 pistol.What's more, their sniper usually use Type 79 SMG or Type 81 rifle instead of SVD or Type 88 ...ORZ

Never heard of Chinese actually loved Mauser enough to use it as a primary CQB weapon. According to US army field reports, the Chinese actually preferred grenades over SMG in close range battle, because like the Japanese the Chinese like to launch sneak attacks at night, and grenade don't usually give the attacker's position away until it exploded in someone's face.

The early PLA assault tactics seems like a mix of Russian and Japanese doctrine, in which a large mass of grenadiers and sub machine gunners tried to infiltrate a position and then use the devastating close range firepower to drive the enemy away. Such attacks often have short duration but are extremely devastating. I don't see how the shotgun can replace SMG/grenade combo in this assault tactic.

raider1001 said:

Never heard of Chinese actually loved Mauser enough to use it as a primary CQB weapon. According to US army field reports, the Chinese actually preferred grenades over SMG in close range battle, because like the Japanese the Chinese like to launch sneak attacks at night, and grenade don't usually give the attacker's position away until it exploded in someone's face.

The early PLA assault tactics seems like a mix of Russian and Japanese doctrine, in which a large mass of grenadiers and sub machine gunners tried to infiltrate a position and then use the devastating close range firepower to drive the enemy away. Such attacks often have short duration but are extremely devastating. I don't see how the shotgun can replace SMG/grenade combo in this assault tactic.

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Here is a pic.
The 8th route army, and the PLA, used Mauser until they got TT33 and PPSH.