Shenyang next gen combat aircraft thread

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laurenjia

Just Hatched
Registered Member
GiantCanofWater said:
Thank you :) I wonder how China is able to afford all these programs its insane
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Better overall project & procurement management and control. For example, the US NGAD programme had 3 contenders to build and contest (fly off) for being the the next NGAD. This already has an implied a 2/3 "waste" inbuilt into the programme. I believe the chinese does a lot more technical evaluations to decide upon the appointed winner to build the eventual prototype for first flight and evaluation and enhancement (vs flyaway contest).

Then there is the overall success of the project itself, ie how many of these projects get to be put into service. From impression, the chinese appear to have less programmes being cancelled due to budget constraints, save for the 1980s 90s when the programme was obsolete and the overall focus was on the economy.

Then there is the overall commonality of research, technologies, systems, materials, etc. Eg sensors, stealth materials, etc.

Finally, most of chinese aerospace companies are state owned, and are less concerned over pandering to the stock owners for high margins and capital appreciation in the stock exchanges per se.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
laurenjia said:
Better overall project & procurement management and control. For example, the US NGAD programme had 3 contenders to build and contest (fly off) for being the the next NGAD. This already has an implied a 2/3 "waste" inbuilt into the programme. I believe the chinese does a lot more technical evaluations to decide upon the appointed winner to build the eventual prototype for first flight and evaluation and enhancement (vs flyaway contest).
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This is the key difference. Analog to putting Ericsson, Huawei, Nokia and Samgsung in the same room with all major operators to come up with one design, and putting each other's best practices in it. J-10 won the selection with only papers and whitebord skethes. This method works because every arguments are open to competitors and customers and 3rd party experts in the whole industry, everyone has to be honest. In a way, there is only one team/proposal in China instead of 2 or 3 in US. The only compition is in the very early conceptual stage and on paper or in computer.
laurenjia said:
Then there is the overall commonality of research, technologies, systems, materials, etc. Eg sensors, stealth materials, etc.
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And engines. For example, ATF had two airframes with two engine (same class) teams. China has one.

laurenjia said:
Finally, most of chinese aerospace companies are state owned, and are less concerned over pandering to the stock owners for high margins and capital appreciation in the stock exchanges per se.
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All military aircrafts are 100% state funded. This part of their business isn't a commercial/market business, so not affected by outside investors. Nor can AVIC argue profit with State because it is part of the state. Besides, XAC, CAC aren't even in the stock market, they have some spin-off companies in the market probably due to their involvement in commercial business. SAC is in market but with AVIC holding owns 65.84% (2025), most other leading investors are state funds and banks. Such strategic enterprises in China are immune to stock market.
 
TK3600

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
taxiya said:
All military aircrafts are 100% state funded. This part of their business isn't a commercial/market business, so not affected by outside investors. Nor can AVIC argue profit with State because it is part of the state. Besides, XAC, CAC aren't even in the stock market, they have some spin-off companies in the market probably due to their involvement in commercial business. SAC is in market but with AVIC holding owns 65.84% (2025), most other leading investors are state funds and banks. Such strategic enterprises in China are immune to stock market.
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CAC: 302132
XAC: 000768
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
TK3600 said:
CAC: 302132
XAC: 000768
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These are the spin-offs that I was talking about. They do carry the same name but the stock investment is not part of running their military operation. For example, from AVIC investor relationship site,
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, if you follow the link of 000768, it only covers commercial business. I can not find details of CAC's share in the market, so I took a guess.
 
TK3600

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
taxiya said:
These are the spin-offs that I was talking about. They do carry the same name but the stock investment is not part of running their military operation. For example, from AVIC investor relationship site,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, if you follow the link of 000768, it only covers commercial business. I can not find details of CAC's share in the market, so I took a guess.
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Pretty sure in case of 302132 the company supply parts for fighter jets under its listing, and every other sign point to this is exactly the military company we refer to as CAC.

In case of XAC the 000768 is the owner company of the fighter jet division, not other way around. So no it is not a spinoff, maybe the other way around. It has 20000 employees, and this is the XAC we commonly refer to, combined with XAC's civilian sides of business at same time.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Nevermore said:
My response is indeed about whether China's industrial scale and technological level can afford these projects, rather than saying that these projects can be easily developed and completed. My previous wording was indeed incorrect.
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At a very high level

1. China's manufacturing industry is 2x the US, when measured with the exchange rate
2. China's manufacturing industry is 4x? the US, in terms of actual physical output
3. In terms of annual STEM graduates, the difference is more like 10x
 
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mack8

Junior Member
China, the only country in the world where fanboys got bored of 6th generation fighter sightings. Meanwhile sods like me living at the butt end of the world were wondering if the lack of CHAD news recently was because they were moved for testing at Yangliang. Presumably not yet since sightings still happen?
 
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