Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

tphuang

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8 CVs? I don't see it's happening, at least not any time soon. Moreover, to keep a production rate of 30 J-35s per year, you'll need to launch a CV every year, do you really think that's really feasible? And even at this rate, it'll be just about 1/4 of that of the J-20. I don't see it would be significantly cheaper than the J-20 in that case. With the J-31 adopted by PLAAF, the story would be quite different.
we already have 3. J-35 can clearly fly off CV-16/17.

Why would they need to launch 1 CV every year to sustain production of 30 J-35s a year?

Will you not have additional for training or tactical development or replacement or just additional units stationed in PLANAF bases. To put thing in perspective, USMC plans to procure 353 F-35B and 67 F-35Cs over 20 year time frame. Do you think there will be any F-35Cs flying off LHDs?

Why would we reduce J-20 program just to make J-31 cheaper? That makes no sense. It would make j-20 unit cost more expensive and reduce the advantages of fewer fleet type.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
So that brings up the obvious point, does any one have rough estimates that compare the construction and operational cost of a J-20 vs a hypothetical J-31?
If the J-31 is half the price of the J-20, sure I can see a hi-lo strategy having a lot of merit. If the J-31 is only 25% cheaper, then that argument becomes harder to make. Keep in mind that a huge chunk of the cost of any airplane is the engine, and 2 medium-sized engines isn't that much cheaper than 2 big engines.

The biggest individual problem for VLO aircraft is maintaining VLO characteristics of the airframe. The structure is different. The materials are different. The workloads are different. And if it doesn't work then the main advantage is lost.

See F-22 and F-35: F-35s have been tested in austere conditions in Alaska while F-22s operate only from bases because the materials are older technology and are not as resilient. The same likely applies to J-20 and J-31. Just because the general design is older doesn't mean the final product must be.

There is no point in developing J-31 if VLO isn't cheaper because it will push J-35 below feasibility. VLO characteristics must not be affected by the corrosive nature of maritime environment which is an extreme factor and the turnaround for carrier-based fighters is also greater than for land-based ones.

The difference in price of engines is not that relevant compared to cost of maintenance and repair. The reason why Europe sticks to twin-engine designs is not that Safran or Rolls-Royce couldn't develop a more powerful engine but because European militaries don't have the money to sustain the engine in service. But better technology extends the life of a less powerful engine which can lower cost even at extremely low production rates.

F-35 is ridiculously expensive to fly because F135 was not an economic decision to power a primary multirole fighter but a political decision to keep F119 technology going. US wanted to keep the edge in high performance engines so it kept a more expensive solution to keep the funding going.

This is why all other countries developing 5gens stick to two engines even for smaller fighters. It's cheaper and simpler this way and Checkmate is a nonsense design.

The primary factor determining viability of J-31 is not its cost but the availability of mature wingman UCAV and UAV technology. Until that is available and scaled for mass production a cheaper VLO is not the priority. The missions will simply be done differently. However as soon as UCAV are available the benefits of doing it and the costs of not doing it will be decisive and that will force VLO across the board. Whoever doesn't have VLO at that moment won't have air power, and that's something that may reality-check Europe's 6gen programs. Maybe 2040 is enough. Maybe not. Let's never find out.

Also:

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reimbursable hourly rates for fixed wing aircraft effective October 1, 2020
  • F-15C ~23,7k $
  • F-15E ~18k $
  • F-16C ~10,4k $
  • F-35A ~18k $
  • F-22A ~ 47k $
  • T-38C ~4,7k $
  • F-18E ~ 11,9k $
  • FA-18C ~21k $
and:

operating cost aircraft us 2018.png

J10/J10A and J11/A/B will be retired and need to be replaced. IMO China will need another aircraft other than J20 as replacement, and J31/35 is here just at the right time.

Unless PLAAF wants a new 6th gen fighter jets to replace them but they may not be in mass production for service before 2035-2040, and many 4th gen fighter jets will have more than 30 years service lives by then.

Service age is just one aspect. Most PLA aircraft are approaching tactical and technological obsolescence. Just because other countries lag in some or all aspects or USAF is forced to maintain older aircraft for economic reasons doesn't mean that these older planes are just as capable on a modern or near-future battlefield as they were 10 or 20 years ago.

Everyone can lag at the same rate and it still doesn't stop evolution of warfare. It only means that each force will be made more and more vulnerable to most modern assets of the enemy. Everyone will fall behind and the vulnerability gap - the difference between the top and median performance - will grow with time. The only solution is fleet upgrade.

For example: there's only so much that a non-VLO airframe can do in battlespace saturated by high-performance sensor networks, high-power AESA radars and very long range missiles.

Example: During Desert Storm almost all Iraqi aircraft shootdowns were done by F-15C flying CAP at high altitude. There were only a few run-ins with other coalition aircraft because F-15C cued in by AWACS had total information and combat advantage. And while they were doing that Iraqi MiG-25s were flying and harassing the F-15s and other aircraft.

Is shooting down one F-15 is worth losing six other aircraft (6x AIM-7M was standard CAP loadout) and pilots because they were too easy a target?

With ARH missiles it's even more risky. A mismatch between VLO and non-VLO will mean that defensive VLO assets must be concentrated to protect non-VLO assets and what was meant as a savings measure becomes a cost sink.

How that plays into fleet structure is another question but those are the general constraints.

I don't see how J-31 can be half the price of J-20. The production cost of J-20 is likely quite low given the high production run (close to 100 per year).

Don't look at the price. That's how defense companies market their product to the public to justify purchases made by governments done with other considerations in mind. This is why F-35A is the most competitive aircraft per airframe at point of sale, but not in O&M.

Look at the total cost of service life of an unit at a given level of readiness (aircraft availability, pilot availability and training etc). This is how militaries program their fleets.

For example in 1990s Polish Air Force decided to retire MiG-23MF by 1998 even though the aircraft were delivered 1978 to 1980 (18-20 years of service) and decided to keep until 2003-2004 MiG-21bis delivered in 1980-81 (23-24 y.o.s). MiG-23 had better parameters and armament compared to MiG-21 (R-23 to R-60 and K-13)and were flown by an elite unit (28th Fighter Regiment). They were retired and the unit disbanded because the engine was designed with low service life and Poland had no means of repairing them domestically while MiG-21 had full support and plenty of spares. What's also important there were only 5 MiG-23UB for training and between 30 and 40 MiG-21U's. For all those reasons the total cost of keeping MiG-23 unit at readiness was close to twice that of MiG-21 and 28th was disbanded.

Plenty of people in the AF were unhappy about it as MiG-23 was a much better plane technically compared to MiG-21 and better to fly but economics said differently and in the end it was a correct decision because MiG-23 would be as effective in actual combat conditions as MiG-21bis regardless of its superior technical characteristics.

More importantly, there are significant cost savings and operational flexibility you get from having just 3 fleet types with PLAAF:
J-20, J-16 and J-10s

Having fewer types generates savings only under very specific conditions. But it is a justification regularly given to the general public by people needing to cut expenses in budgets. Those savings result often in greater expenses whenever the reduced fleet is used in combat.

If you need a cheaper aircraft next to J-20, just build more UCAVs

Just for the record: there are people online who interview you as an expert and in those interviews you speak critically of other people's knowledge.
 

KangarooPriest

New Member
Registered Member
If we assume 6 CVs, which I think is a reasonable conservative estimate, with least 5 active at a time in a surge, and that all of them will run purely J-31s as their fighters.

Liaoning and Shandong will probably carry about a single brigade's worth of J-31s each (possibly without spares onboard). In theory they might be able to take more under surge conditions but that's not a great idea anyways. Each USN carrier has 4 VFA/VMFAs onboard for (in theory) 40 F-35s plus 1 VAQ with 7 Growlers. The PLAN might run things differently for various reasons including 40 being kind of an awkward number them unless they start running 5-group brigades just for the larger carriers, but it's a decent rough estimate. That very quickly gets you up to ~200 J-31s needed, and that's before you add in training brigades and land-based reserve brigades, or the possibility of adding more aircraft (likely around 2 full brigades in a surge) to each carrier.

To put thing in perspective, USMC plans to procure 353 F-35B and 67 F-35Cs over 20 year time frame. Do you think there will be any F-35Cs flying off LHDs?
Just for the record, those F-35C VFMAs are fully interchangable with Navy VFAs. In fact, out of the current 2 USN F-35 squadrons deployed onboard carriers, 1 is actually a USMC squadron. You might have already known this but just noting this since you were talking about land bases.

Not to mention, export potential. Shenyang will have plenty of demands.
I wouldn't bet on that really. The countries that can afford to buy and operate 5th gen planes are mostly buying F-35s, and wouldn't buy from China anyways. That still leaves you with a few options: Pakistan we've talked about, one or two of the Gulf states may chose to buy a squadron to grease some palms, Malaysia and Indonesia might consider it, etc. However, none of these orders are likely to be very large.
 

tphuang

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Don't look at the price. That's how defense companies market their product to the public to justify purchases made by governments done with other considerations in mind. This is why F-35A is the most competitive aircraft per airframe at point of sale, but not in O&M.

Look at the total cost of service life of an unit at a given level of readiness (aircraft availability, pilot availability and training etc). This is how militaries program their fleets.

For example in 1990s Polish Air Force decided to retire MiG-23MF by 1998 even though the aircraft were delivered 1978 to 1980 (18-20 years of service) and decided to keep until 2003-2004 MiG-21bis delivered in 1980-81 (23-24 y.o.s). MiG-23 had better parameters and armament compared to MiG-21 (R-23 to R-60 and K-13)and were flown by an elite unit (28th Fighter Regiment). They were retired and the unit disbanded because the engine was designed with low service life and Poland had no means of repairing them domestically while MiG-21 had full support and plenty of spares. What's also important there were only 5 MiG-23UB for training and between 30 and 40 MiG-21U's. For all those reasons the total cost of keeping MiG-23 unit at readiness was close to twice that of MiG-21 and 28th was disbanded.

Plenty of people in the AF were unhappy about it as MiG-23 was a much better plane technically compared to MiG-21 and better to fly but economics said differently and in the end it was a correct decision because MiG-23 would be as effective in actual combat conditions as MiG-21bis regardless of its superior technical characteristics.

Having fewer types generates savings only under very specific conditions. But it is a justification regularly given to the general public by people needing to cut expenses in budgets. Those savings result often in greater expenses whenever the reduced fleet is used in combat.
Based on what I've heard, availability of J-20 is really good, about the same as J-16 and J-10C. I cannot see how a future J-31 could have higher availability than the numbers I've seen for J-20.

Is your comment about J-20 based on past use cases or based on confidential data that you have access to? If you have real data that shows lower availability of J-20 or overly high maintenance & flight cost. I would love to see it.

J-20 basically shares the same engine as J-10 and J-16s. It is likely the most mature and reliable engine in service with PLAAF. There is a wealth of expertise within China on how to maintain and repair it. There is not another aeroengine type with similar level of knowledge base.

A J-31 would not only add a flight type, it would also add a new engine type. An engine type that is currently in service with very few operational aircraft.

The two aircraft would share many of the same suppliers. I don't see why parts for J-20 would break down more frequently than J-31. Similarly, I don't see why CAC build quality is lower than SAC or its ability to supply spare parts and fix problems on J-20 would be worse.

I have no heard any negative comments in terms of serviceability and maintenance and operational costs on WS-10 version of J-20

Just for the record: there are people online who interview you as an expert and in those interviews you speak critically of other people's knowledge.
I see that you have now moved onto the insult part of reply.

If you think I know nothing on this subject, then please post actual evidences to show J-20 has unreasonable operational cost

I don't know if you actually listened to people that interviewed me, because all except one has nothing to do with military. And I gladly trash on think tanker knowledge of technology.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
J-31 in PLAAF service makes perfect sense. It is your post that doesn't make any sense.

I'll try to be as short as I can but it's not something that can be explained in a single post very well.

Aerial warfare has never been a problem of individual combat. It's a collaborative effort through and through. And currently that collaboration will extend to unmanned systems some of which will follow the manned fighter while others will act autonomously. It's also a very complex problem requiring a lot of preparation and you don't understand it at all.

The current plans for F-35s for example involve a standard set of two UCAVs developed under CCA (Collaborative Combat Aicraft) program. In the future there might be more e.g. two UCAV carrying weapons or jammers and four UAVs serving recon or decoy roles.
NGAD and B-21 is already being programmed with the capability to coordinate several CCAs.

All that to perform the same mission that 30 years ago would be executed by a single aircraft. All because the capabilities of radars, missiles and C4 systems has grown well beyond what a single aircraft can do. So for the aircraft to be able to perform the mission successfully the counter-capability needs to be distributed across several other aircraft because one is not enough.

There simply isn't room in the future for manned aircraft not capable of collaboration with unmanned systems because of scale of attrition and the complexity of systems that need to be present in combat space to achieve success with any likelihood. And even then the basic mission team is always going to be two pilots i.e. two F-35s mean four CCA and likely eight light UAVs or however many MALD-type drones.

Another element that most people can't imagine is the vulnerability of comm networks relaying information over distance. Presently EM spectrum is a separate domain of warfare where you fight for the ability to use EM spectrum to carry information. You physically have to fight for the ability to transmit signal between nodes in your network.

Information itself is also a domain of warfare and the ability to process information in limited time is limited by physics. You can put only so much computing power into an aircraft and it isn't much. Therefore any significant computing operation must be conducted by a dedicated system on a larger aircraft or on the ground or it is conducted by a human present on the spot.

All of these have their risks but the risk to disruption of communication between UCAVs and a distant and expensive command post in the air or on the ground is significantly higher than the risk to a pilot in a fighter managing the decision in the battlespace where the pilot has constant awareness and needs only to control a handful of UAVs.

Largely it's a question of signal strength and decision time. A ground target has the capability to generate more power and more intelligence than an aircraft. Therefore - in a hypothetical scenario - it can intermittently alternate between high power wideband jamming and scanning the battlespace for targets. It can identity them faster and engage them more effectively because physics allows for more energy and computing power on the ground than in the air which will reflect the scenario in most cases.

Whenever that happens any long range network of drones will be neutralised by the jamming because as soon as the jamming is on they have to act autonomously and as soon as the jamming is off they have to reacquire their mission parameters while being engaged by enemy defense systems.

It's a mathematical problem that can be easily solved by either allowing the drones to act completely autonomously or having a man in the loop in the area. So far nobody is risking full autonomy because we're nowhere near an AI that can replicate human decision and which fits in a standard UCAV. Without this level of intelligence "full autonomy" is as good as full autonomy of an unguided missile. The AI that you are familiar with requires gigantic clusters operating in climate-controlled conditions to achieve their efficiency and is trained on gigantic datasets. Any autonomous system can be easily deceived by spontaneous random masking of target information with active protection measures. It's too easy to deceive an AI that for an AI to break the deception. It's a physics problem and whoever has to battle gravity while solving it loses by default.

Which is why we're nowhere near getting rid of pilots actually flying the mission. And if you need to have pilots you need to have manned aircraft.

And this is where we come around to J-20 and J-31 and this:


I made that thread because from what I've seen you people love to fantasise about unrealistic scenarios and never bother to sit down and try to crunch actual numbers. So there, Desert Storm in actual numbers. This is closest to what any future war will be like.

War never changes. It is a numbers game. The side with better numbers wins. But you have to know which numbers matter and which don't.

Every weapon is a machine that has its life cycle both long-term and short-term between mandatory checks and likely breakdowns. The more you fly the more you fight. The more you fly the more you wear them out. Pilots are trained before the war. Machines wear out during the war. A pilot can fly fewer hours than a machine over a day but more days than a machine over a week of constant operations. So if for every 3 J-20s PLAAF can get 5 J-31s these additional 2 fighters can be the difference between success and failure of an operation. On the other hand there are plenty of missions that require VLO (J-16 can't do them) and J-31 can perform them as well as J-20 so building J-31s instead of J-20 to run those missions frees up resources for more J-20s for other missions.

Also J-31 is likely to be better aircraft than J-20. It will have worse performance but it will have better reliability and economy which means that not only will there be more of them but they will be easier to fix, maintain and replace. Those things win war. Don't believe me? Here:

View attachment 125348

Who won this one?

Desert Storm too was won not by F-117s or F-15s but by F-16s. Lots and lots of sorties by F-16s. Close to twice as many sorties as the other two combined. And also there were more F-16s in theater than the two planes combined because they were cheaper to make and maintain.

I will be very surprised if PLAAF doesn't get J-31 by the end of the decade. 2030s will be the era of UAV collaboration and you can't do it with non-VLO aircraft. That's a recipe for getting sniped and wasting every single UAV.

I also don't understand the fetishisation of J-20. It's the same ridiculous circlejerk as with F-22. It's the first VLO/5gen China made. It simply can't be better than the next one. You missed the whole learning from use process for reasons that I really don't want to get into. Why wouldn't PLAAF a cheaper plane that is better? o_O

That's all.

Hang on it doesn't seem like you read or understood my post at all.

At least, it appears your post is riddled with fallacies and strawman points. I don't disagree with anything in your post. And please spare me the arrogance of the "you peoples" as if you know that much more about warfare than the rest of us armchair peoples across the internet. Yes yes everything in your post is technically correct and mine doesn't actually address those specific points.

What I've said is that just comparing the platforms, J-31 and J-20, J-20 is a superior platform for taking on upgrades purely because of more available space and more available engine power. That is all. We can speculate on sub-types all we want because all this is purely hypothetical. Let's use a thought experiment.

In a case where PLAAF can have its current J-20A and J-20S models doing their thing (mostly air superiority and UCAV CCA respectively) while it also inducts J-31 as the "budget" 5th gen fighter. What advantage does this combination have over J-20A, J-20S, J-20x where J-20x can represent an entirely different purpose developed sub-type that fills ALL the roles that J-31 would have in PLAAF service. Reminder this is PLAAF... not PLAN. Separate convo and one that my post addressed.

J-20x would have far more engine power available for equipment, more space, carry more weight, carry more weapons. What advantage would a PLAAF J-31 hold over it? Your post seems to suggest cost in procurement, maintenance, and operation. Well that's a major assumption do you not agree? J-31 is a twin engine fighter. It would not cost that much less than a J-20. Once we factor in development time, manufacturing, a whole new logistics and supply chain for production and maintenance of WS-19/21 (whatever) engine for the J-31 well the whole cost related advantage becomes very questionable.

So we're left with a platform specific advantage. Your post already suggests that J-31 is unlikely to be better than J-20 in performance. Again I agree, clearly. So what makes it better? Reliability? economy? thems some serious SAC promoter assumptions lol. I kid but seriously, if we're talking J-31 being a later development than J-20 and developed with more modern tech and capabilities, okay sure... but then I'd suggest that since J-20 is a constantly upgraded platform, they can just as easily and quickly develop new J-20 blocks that outpace and outperform J-31 block being developed now.
 

blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
we already have 3. J-35 can clearly fly off CV-16/17.

Why would they need to launch 1 CV every year to sustain production of 30 J-35s a year?

Will you not have additional for training or tactical development or replacement or just additional units stationed in PLANAF bases. To put thing in perspective, USMC plans to procure 353 F-35B and 67 F-35Cs over 20 year time frame. Do you think there will be any F-35Cs flying off LHDs?

Why would we reduce J-20 program just to make J-31 cheaper? That makes no sense. It would make j-20 unit cost more expensive and reduce the advantages of fewer fleet type.
To some point, all of your current CVs have been equipped with enough J-35s, but you still keep the same production rate of 30/yr. Let's say you have to wait 4 yrs for your next CV, so you'll come up with more than 100 J-35s waiting for it?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Why do PLAAF J-31 proponents like talking about the following assumptions and ignore the following facts.

1. J-31 will cost less than J-20 equivalent, commensurate with performance capability in expected use calcs.

we simply do not know this for sure in fact as J-31 will rely on new engines that PLAAF has never operated before and manufacturer has never built or refined over decades before (yes ignore WS-15 falling under same but WS-10C does not and WS-15 is indeed at least further ahead in development timeframe in fact in service compared to WS-19/21).

and again people forget that making, buying, and servicing WS-19/21 is not somehow much less expensive than doing that for WS-15. Medium thrust engine costs aren't magically even 70% that of heavy thrust engines. Reminder (seems to be lost on some) that J-31 is twin engined. Mig-29 was roughly 70% (iirc) the operational cost of Su-27 correct me if wrong but recall reading that Mig-29 wasn't that much less than Su-27 unlike F-16 compared to F-15 coming close to half the operational cost.


2. J-31 will fill unique capability gaps the J-20 does not.

again where does this assumption come from? No F-16 really fills a capability gap the F-15 is wholly unable to.

3. The argument from economies of scale.

this one is most strange to me. Arguing that a would be fighter could have better economies of scale compared to an in production fighter. People either don't know how economies of scale works or don't know the concept of opportunity cost. If you have a budget for 2000 fighters (commensurate cost-performance equals a net/net = net/net), you dont have scale advantage if you split x:y where x,y>0. You do have scale if you go 2000 of one type. Particularly if we circle back to the capabilities and any capabilities gap between the two platforms. Again it is highly unlikely J-31 can have capability gap with J-20 where J-20 cannot get a new sub-type that absolutely flogs the J-31 being ... you know much larger and having considerably more available power.


Observations on performance; J-31 is a similar type of fighter to J-20 ie air superiority focused. It isn't purpose built for interception (wing sweep angle similar), it isn't purpose built for ground attack (inferior to J-20 due to smaller weapons bay and no obvious clear advantages we can sight that we can attribute to some extra performance here), it isn't purpose built for slow and low speeds (again this is for A2G), it isn't purpose built for better kinematic performance to J-20 (in fact it appears likely to be worse).

Unless the J-31 has some miraculously amazing manufacturing advancements that make it perform so much better and/or cheaper than J-20 AND simultaneously these advantages cannot somehow to be introduced to J-20 platform despite AVIC being one unit and sharing tech between sub-groups. Again this would be a silly assumption to make for us.

Unless J-31 has some miraculous capability designed into it that somehow again cannot be done for J-20 despite J-20 presenting engineers with far more room and available power for subsystems.

J-31 may be stealthier than J-20 due to having a smaller profile and no canards. This is the only possible advantage we can actually credit it without making heavy assumptions. Would this slight advantage be worth introducing a completely strange new platform and associated line costs for PLAAF? I very much doubt it. Is PLAAF free from grift and SAC hassling? I also very much doubt it.
 
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blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Based on what I've heard, availability of J-20 is really good, about the same as J-16 and J-10C. I cannot see how a future J-31 could have higher availability than the numbers I've seen for J-20.

Is your comment about J-20 based on past use cases or based on confidential data that you have access to? If you have real data that shows lower availability of J-20 or overly high maintenance & flight cost. I would love to see it.

J-20 basically shares the same engine as J-10 and J-16s. It is likely the most mature and reliable engine in service with PLAAF. There is a wealth of expertise within China on how to maintain and repair it. There is not another aeroengine type with similar level of knowledge base.

A J-31 would not only add a flight type, it would also add a new engine type. An engine type that is currently in service with very few operational aircraft.

The two aircraft would share many of the same suppliers. I don't see why parts for J-20 would break down more frequently than J-31. Similarly, I don't see why CAC build quality is lower than SAC or its ability to supply spare parts and fix problems on J-20 would be worse.

I have no heard any negative comments in terms of serviceability and maintenance and operational costs on WS-10 version of J-20


I see that you have now moved onto the insult part of reply.

If you think I know nothing on this subject, then please post actual evidences to show J-20 has unreasonable operational cost

I don't know if you actually listened to people that interviewed me, because all except one has nothing to do with military. And I gladly trash on think tanker knowledge of technology.
But if you look at the whole PLA and China's defense industry, the J-35 will be there anyway, so adding the J-31 is not really like adding a type...
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
But if you look at the whole PLA and China's defense industry, the J-35 will be there anyway, so adding the J-31 is not really like adding a type...

This depends. J-35 is there for PLAN and will have some significant enough differences to a PLAAF ground based J-31. Sure the changes are much less than a ground up fighter but when you already have J-20 and currently looking at 6th gen (one on the way out, one in, one being tested rule of thumb -> J-10/11/16, J-20, 6th gen). And have plenty of expensive work inducting and pairing manned platforms with drones. Is there really that much room in PLA budget for yet another line of similar (at best) performance 5th gen to one that you have more production facilities for and one you have over 7 years experience flying and refining? Probably not.

But we do need to remember that China operates differently and at times much less efficiently. Everyone has to have a slice of the cake and SAC may argue that PLAN slice of the cake isn't big enough. For that point, I very much think they should simply focus on export market for their J-31 ground based variant and not erode PLAAF capability and budget by pushing for something that represents a less than ideal bargain for PLAAF.

In any case we're (@Gloire) just internet enthusiasts talking and are not privy to all the confidential stuff that decision makers have. This is all just wagering on procurement.
 
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