Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

b787 said:

J-10 has external stores and a single dorsal fin, ventral fins so it is no stealth fighter, being single engined it means it carries few weapons so it carries few AAM at the expense of range, add more AAM and fuel tanks it becomes fat and heavy easy to detect, it has no supercruise, so F-18Es which is twin engine carrying more AAMs has better BVR chances, versus Rafale, the combination of higher TWR, better aerodynamics makes the J-10 no more than a F-16 threat aircraft, the USA has thousands of F-16s, China a few J-10s dependent on Al-31s from Russia.
Su-27 clones are expensive and very visible to radar, so F-35s and F-18Es will deplete the J-10s easily.

Su-35 has Speed, Speeds means the Hornet and F-35 can not chase it on equal terms.

J-31 can be used with lower RCS even better than J-20 with those ugly canards and Horrible ventral fins, J-31 only real weakness is the engines, which is the same weakness J-20 has, but being smaller can be built in larger numbers, so China can deploy a fighter which is a poors man F-35, but better than the J-10

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J-10B/C: 11 hardpoints, mach 2.2, AESA
Super Hornet: 11 hardpoints, mach 1.8, AESA
Rafale: 14 hardpoints, mach 1.8, AESA (why are we comparing with Rafale?)
Su-35: 12 hardpoints, mach 2.25, PESA
J-11X: 10-12 hardpoints, mach 2.35, PESA/AESA

Next time you make up a story about relative speed and how many missiles aircraft can carry, you might wanna check it up against facts before posting fairy tales you made up as "analysis."

Keep arguing about how J-31 is better than J-20 LOL. The people who actually make these jets have picked J-20 to develop and to not fund the J-31, so every time you go the other way, it means that either you know better than the PLAAF which one of these Chinese planes is better, or it means that you're just in your own world without any relation to outside facts or evidence.

manqiangrexue said:

J-10B/C: 11 hardpoints, mach 2.2, AESA
Super Hornet: 11 hardpoints, mach 1.8, AESA
Rafale: 14 hardpoints, mach 1.8, AESA (why are we comparing with Rafale?)
Su-35: 12 hardpoints, mach 2.25, PESA
J-11X: 10-12 hardpoints, mach 2.35, PESA/AESA

Next time you make up a story about relative speed and how many missiles aircraft can carry, you might wanna check it up against facts before posting fairy tales you made up as "analysis."

Keep arguing about how J-31 is better than J-20 LOL. The people who actually make these jets have picked J-20 to develop and to not fund the J-31, so every time you go the other way, it means that either you know better than the PLAAF which one of these Chinese planes is better, or it means that you're just in your own world without any relation to outside facts or evidence.

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why you do not use logic and stop your jingoistic ultra nationalistc way of thinking?

J-10 only has an single engine got it? 13500 kg at best, the F-18E has two engines close to 20000kg of thrust, do you get it or still your nationalistic view makes blur your vision?

let me explain it, the J-10 as a single jet fighter adding 8000kg of means your 13500 is less thrust, the jet gets too much weight, for the J-10 to be agile enough will fly with 2 missiles at the most and only internal fuel, a F-18E can carry easily 6-8 missiles and internal fuel and still will be light, now you want to add fuel tanks to your J-10s you add extra weight reducing your ability to carry weapons, the Superbug will carry more weight in fact at least 2000 kg more in external stores or payload, that means more weapons and fuel

3 fuel tanks


5 fuel tanks
to put it simply the payload weight the F-18E can carry for the same TWR is higher than J-10

Well, it seems there apparently as a taxi test of a 2nd unit...but I have not heard of a flight yet.

The fact that they built a second (if they really did) says that there is some life in the program.

The fact that almost anything associated with it and any progress is glacial still indicates that the interest within the PRC is not high.

We'll just have to wait and see and let tie tell us what becomes of it,.

I still think the chances are not high.

b787 said:

why you do not use logic and stop your jingoistic ultra nationalistc way of thinking?

J-10 only has an single engine got it? 13500 kg at best, the F-18E has two engines close to 20000kg of thrust, do you get it or still your nationalistic view makes blur your vision?

let me explain it, the J-10 as a single jet fighter adding 8000kg of means your 13500 is less thrust, the jet gets too much weight, for the J-10 to be agile enough will fly with 2 missiles at the most and only internal fuel, a F-18E can carry easily 6-8 missiles and internal fuel and still will be light, now you want to add fuel tanks to your J-10s you add extra weight reducing your ability to carry weapons, the Superbug will carry more weight in fact at least 2000 kg more in external stores or payload, that means more weapons and fuel

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3 fuel tanks

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5 fuel tanks
to put it simply the payload weight the F-18E can carry for the same TWR is higher than J-10

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I have no idea why you keep emphasizing how many engines an aircraft has to determine its ability to carry ordinance or its range. J-10 and F-18 are completely different aircraft designs and they have stated range and payloads; there's zero reason to try to deduce that by the number of engines an aircraft has. J-10 is not a long-legged fighter and it was never mean to chase an enemy out at sea. It has plenty of fuel and lift (for reference, PL-12 is 180kg, so I have no idea what made you think of 8,000kg as a number) to be heavily-armed and fueled up to fight enemies encroaching on its defense areas. In other words, you don't load it with 4 oil tanks and 2 missiles and have it chase down a carrier with hornets on it 1,500 miles away. That's stupid. If the threat is close enough, J-10B/C can be dispatched with little or no external fuel, armed full of missiles, and it will be a very difficult adversary due to its advanced radar/avionics and its delta-canard maneuverability. If the threat is far (and you don't want to rain missiles on it), then J-11B/D are the correct aircraft to call. The D-variant should be at least as sophisticated in avionics and radar as J-10C and it has the leg length and payload to engage a long-ranged foe. And according to your logic here, "Su-35 has Speed, Speeds means the Hornet and F-35 can not chase it on equal terms.", both aircraft are gonna be at an advantage LOL.Superbug's gonna be at mach 1.8. J-10 gets to mach 2.2 and SinoFlankers get all the way to 2.35. Not real convincing why I'd wanna train pilots in Russian to import something for mach 2.25...

Your whole post is an incredibly ignorant oversimplification of air combat, as though range, payload, and speed are the factors to determining victory. Well, if so, you can probably win with Tu-160. No fighter can touch its range and payload and it's pretty fast too: mach 2.05! According to your logic, it can out-fight a a Superbug or Rafale hands down!

The only person who's jingoistic here is you. You sound like an angry car salesman trying to push the Su-35 sale again. What, you think someone in the PLAAF is going to be reading this and feel like they need Su-35? I know it sucks that Russia tries to sell Su-35 everywhere and no one wants to buy it (which says more about its capability than any salesman can). And then, China may or may not have sent in a small pity order. And then, Chinese pilots tested it and said that it's an inferior jet to J-16. I know you don't like that and you want people to think Su-35's the right choice and China needs these (if it did, it would order 200+). But be a better salesman and grow up. You're not going to convince anybody here. China doesn't need Su-35. J-16 is superior and J-11D will even further that. Putting those stupid pictures is a perfect examples of how childish you're getting. You think there's no pictures of J-10 strapped with 11 missiles on it? You think those pictures somehow prove J-10 carries fewer missiles than Super Hornet? Why don't you just find a picture of J-10 flying clean and use that as proof that J-10 doesn't carry weapons? LOL

manqiangrexue said:

I have no idea why you keep emphasizing how many engines an aircraft has to determine its ability to carry ordinance or its range.

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you do not understand simply because you do not understand a twin engined heavy fighter like F-18E can carry more Long range AAM, improving its chances at BVR and a short range fighter means your enemy can fire at you closer to their targets so, F-18E improves its odds of hitting targets near your coast, So J-10 carries less BVR AAM, allows the intruders fire their ASM closer to their targets and F-18E carries AIM-9X cued with HMS which makes any canard useless.

Why China gives priority to J-20? did you get it now? range yes range.

Bigger aircraft longer range this means strikers like F-18E have to fly from farther distances, something J-10 can not assure, J-31 can not assure too, so which fighter would you get? of course the longer range one but hat one is more expensive, so you get less and the opposition has a better 5th generation F-22 fighter, now can you get the picture clear?

J-20 has higher priority because it has longer range, not because it is better than J-31, J-31 has less priority because China has inferior engine technology so it can not make the engines fitted to the F-18E or F-35, J-31 is a short ranged fighter, and is not cheap, very likely you can buy 3-4 J-10s for the price of a J-31.
The J-31 needs engines like the ones fitted to F-18E to be a relatively agile fighter, at this moment is not agile and has no range, J-20 has the range to allow to keep an aircraft carrier at farther distances, the main threat China faces are aircraft carrier do you get it now?


F-18E is a very good aircraft and F-35 too, J-10 can not compete, J-20 has range, but J-31 can have numbers

b787 said:

you do not understand simply because you do not understand a twin engined heavy fighter like F-18E can carry more Long range AAM, improving its chances at BVR and a short range fighter means your enemy can fire at you closer to their targets so, F-18E improves its odds of hitting targets near your coast, So J-10 carries less BVR AAM, allows the intruders fire their SAM closer to their targets and F-18E carries AIM-9X cued with HMS which makes any canard useless.

Why China gives priority to J-20? did you get it now? range yes range.

Bigger aircraft longer range this means strikers like F-18E have to fly from farther distances, something J-10 can not assure, J-31 can not assure too, so which fighter would you get? of course the longer range one but hat one is more expensive, so you get less and the opposition has a better 5th generation F-22 fighter, now can you get the picture clear?

J-20 has higher priority because it has longer range, not because it is better than J-31, J-31 has less priority because China has inferior engine technology so it can not make the engines fitted to the F-18E or F-35, J-31 is a short ranged fighter, and is not cheap, very likely you can buy 3-4 J-10s for the price of a J-31.
The J-31 needs engines like the ones fitted to F-18E to be a relatively agile fighter, at this moment is not agile and has no range, J-20 has the range to allow to keep an aircraft carrier at farther distances, the main threat China faces are aircraft carrier do you get it now?


F-18E is a very good aircraft and F-35 too, J-10 can not compete, J-20 has range, but J-31 can have numbers

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Uh. No, I do not understand that because it's not true. J-10 is not a heavy fighter; its range and payload weight are less than a heavy fighter's. BUT what you didn't understand is that heavier payload does not necessarily translate to more weapons. J-10's payload is way way enough to max out its ability to carry long BVR missiles on its 11 hardpoints, just like the F-18E. A BVR missile is around 180kg. Let's estimate up and say 200kg. Then let's say we carry one on every hardpoint (which is not realistic since some hardpoints such as wingtip are only designed to carry WVR). That's 2,200kg! J-10 can easily carry that and full internal fuel. It won't have any disadvantage at all in firepower as the Hornet also only has 11 hardpoints. Now, it won't have the same range as the Hornet, and that's because it's a light fighter, designed to intercept aggression, not to chase it and that's ok. Once it does engage the Superbug, J-10 is faster, more agile, and has at least the same amount of missiles since the Hornet has to bring the fight to the J-10 from a carrier very far away to avoid getting sunk by a huge land-launched ASMB (so Hornet is likely to need at least 1 fuel tank, taking away 1-2 missile spots while J-10 doesn't need any to meet the Hornet as it's coming in.) Then, being faster, J-10 is better at imparting starting kinetic force on its BVR missiles, giving them higher speed/higher range. You can't ask for anything more from a light fighter. The only time when what you said makes any sense is if your commander is stupid enough to try to use a light fighter as a heavy fighter. If he wants to load the J-10 up with multiple fuel tanks so it can meet the Superbug 1,500 miles out at sea, then he's gonna have a problem also arming it properly, thus becoming limited by J-10's payload. As I said, in such a scenario, SinoFlankers are the machines for the job, not J-10. For interception of incoming aerial threat, J-10 is perfect.

Of course, J-20 is a large aircraft with long range and heavy payload. That's very important and good. But you seem to think that its design lacks stealth and/or maneuverability compared to J-31? And so PLAAF chose J-20, sacrificing those for range/payload? That would not be a smart way to think. If canards were a problem, and J-31 is too small, then the obvious solution would be for the PLAAF to order a larger, heavier, longer-ranged J-31-like aircraft built around the J-20's current engines. But they did not do that. It's because they want J-20 exactly as it is, canards and all.

What is your last sentence? Use J-20's range against aircraft carriers?? LOL J-20's bay wasn't even designed for the type of missiles you'd use against an aircraft carrier. So far, those missiles can only be carried externally on aircraft like Flankers and Flying Leopard. J-20's range is high so that it can loiter or patrol airspace and if needed, fight aerial enemies farther from China. The stupidest way to engage an aircraft carrier is to have stealth fighters sneak up on it and throw little missiles at it. It'll look like the Roman Colosseum before it goes down! The best way is to lob 1-hit-kill ballistic missiles at it (DF series) from thousands of miles away or to try to hit its propellers with a torpedo. "...do you get it now?" LOL

Quality of a piece of equipment is not only defined by hardcore parameters but also how it fits the mission. You should never use a light fighter in a mission fit for a heavy fighter and vice versa. The F-22 will be a poor poor heavy strategic bomber if you use the standard of a bomber to judge it.

The F-16, like the J-10, is small and has a shorter range. Yet, the USAF has thousands of them. So they have their use. The PLA can also have thousands of J-10B/C. They don't at the moment but they are still working on it.

A good basketball player needs to be able to handle the ball well, shoot the ball well from long distance. However, I know a guy who can't even shoot the ball when standing still and he can't handle the ball. Then he must be a poor basketball player. His name is Shaquille O'Neal and he is one of the greatest basketball player in the world.

It all depends on how you use your equipment. Yes, the J-10 has shorter range. The PLA knows that and won't send it to a long distance mission. They will be mainly used close to home. It's small and agile. It will wait at the door step and ready to bite. It's a guard dog. And you don't send it out on a hunting expedition.

Similarly, stealth fighters like the F-22 and the J-20 have many advantages but one disadvantage is their weapons bay. They won't be able to carry as many missiles as those fighters with external hardpoints. So stealth fighter pilots know their limitations and make sure they won't be trigger happy.

manqiangrexue said:

Uh. No, I do not understand that because it's not true. J-10 is not a heavy fighter; its range and payload weight are less than a heavy fighter's.
Of course, J-20 is a large aircraft with long range and heavy payload. That's very important and good. But you seem to think that its design lacks stealth and/or maneuverability compared to J-31? And so PLAAF chose J-20, sacrificing those for range/payload? That would not be a smart way to think. If canards were a problem, and J-31 is too small, then the obvious solution would be for the PLAAF to order a larger, heavier, longer-ranged J-31-like aircraft built around the J-20's current engines. But they did not do that. It's because they want J-20 exactly as it is, canards and all.

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you still do not understand. you write but do not think what you are writing.

F-18E is limited to Mach 1.8, the J-10A limited to Mach 2.2, but how long can a light fighter keep supersonic speed?

can you get it now? to target enemy fighters you will not use supersonic speeds Specially a J-10 on internal fuel only, why? simple supersonic speeds will empty the fuel tanks in 3-5 minutes of your J-10, can you get it and stop daydreaming?

J-10 targets the F-18E at subsonic speeds, both aircraft can not supercruise, so both fire their missiles at the same speeds.

F-22, Eurofighter, PAKFA or Su-35 can do it, they have supercruise, J-10 can not.

Thus China uses Flanker clones to fend off F-18Es, not J-10s.
But Flankers are unstealthy, the only advantage is if you supercruise, but no Chinese Flanker clone supercruises.

Same trouble you have J-31, it has a limited payload with limited Range, thus it is uncapable to be a long range fighter, again you understand why J-20 was chosen and given priority?

J-10 is a light weight fighter, you need fuel, it has short range thus it needs fuel tanks and 2-4 missiles at most stop dreaming, the fighter will fly with fuel tanks and missiles on real operational condition, not in your daydream stories.
The F-18 is more a striker than a fighter, thus it has 2 AIM-9X to fend off light weight fighters, and carries 4-6 BVR and fuel tanks in operational conditions.


But F-18E can carry air to surface weapons too, so the superbug is designed as a jack of all trades.


To do not deviate more it is simply J-31 has not the fuel or payload to be a fighter with some chances to be a very good one specially it carries two engines eating up space on a small airframe.

J-20 has enough fuel, that is the reason it has priority only that

b787 said:

you still do not understand. you write but do not think what you are writing.

F-18E is limited to Mach 1.8, the J-10A limited to Mach 2.2, but how long can a light fighter keep supersonic speed?

can you get it now? to target enemy fighters you will not use supersonic speeds Specially a J-10 on internal fuel only, why? simple supersonic speeds will empty the fuel tanks in 3-5 minutes of your J-10, can you get it and stop daydreaming?

J-10 targets the F-18E at subsonic speeds, both aircraft can not supercruise, so both fire their missiles at the same speeds.

F-22, Eurofighter, PAKFA or Su-35 can do it, they have supercruise, J-10 can not.

Thus China uses Flanker clones to fend off F-18Es, not J-10s.
But Flankers are unstealthy, the only advantage is if you supercruise, but no Chinese Flanker clone supercruises.

Same trouble you have J-31, it has a limited payload with limited Range, thus it is uncapable to be a long range fighter, again you understand why J-20 was chosen and given priority?

J-10 is a light weight fighter, you need fuel, it has short range thus it needs fuel tanks and 2-4 missiles at most stop dreaming, the fighter will fly with fuel tanks and missiles on real operational condition, not in your daydream stories.
The F-18 is more a striker than a fighter, thus it has 2 AIM-9X to fend off light weight fighters, and carries 4-6 BVR and fuel tanks in operational conditions.


But F-18E can carry air to surface weapons too, so the superbug is designed as a jack of all trades.


To do not deviate more it is simply J-31 has not the fuel or payload to be a fighter with some chances to be a very good one specially it carries two engines eating up space on a small airframe.

J-20 has enough fuel, that is the reason it has priority only that

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Of course I don't understand. Nobody here understands you because you are always wrong. Why would an aircraft without supercruise be limited to subsonic speeds? J-10 fights close to Chinese shores. It turns on its afterburners (and F-18E can do that as well), hits mach 2.2, launches, then goes home. According to your broken logic, all light aircraft that cannot supercruise don't even need to have afterburners cus they can't go supersonic or they'll empty out and crash.

J-10 can only fly 3-5 minutes on afterburners? First of all, I wanna see a source for that. Where did you get that information? Second, it doesn't take 3-5 minutes to fire missiles. Get a BVR lock, max out your speed, and fire in seconds, then ease of the throttle. It's that fast. You do understand that you don't need to stay supersonic the whole trip just because you briefly went supersonic to launch missiles, right? Or is the vodka telling you, no? LOL As I said, J-10 is the perfect point fighter. It's agile, fast, advanced, and carries as many missiles as a medium or even heavy fighter. Supercruise is irrelevant to this strategy.

J-10's a point fighter; it's a short distance fighter; it's defensive and waits for its enemies to attempt to enter its defensive range before engaging. It doesn't fly out to find its targets so it doesn't need high range. I've told you this at least 3 separate times now. You'd need to have a single digit IQ to still be stuck on its range and need to carry fuel tanks.

Chinese Flankers actually have superior range, speed, and payload than the superbug and now you say that because neither is stealthy, then there's no advantage?? Weren't you just saying above how Superbugs have advantage over J-10 because they have higher range and payload? Neither of those are stealthy, and J-10 is actually faster. Shoot yourself in the foot again? LOLOL

I don't understand your English regarding the J-20 and J-31; sounds like you're drunk. Just one sentence; seems you want to believe that the only reason J-20 was selected is that it's big and carries more fuel and everything else is better on the J-31. That's basically so stupid, it's hard to decide where to start taking it apart from. Obviously, I've said that if that was the case, they could simply upsize the J-31 to carry more fuel and to use AL-31X/WS-10X like the Hornet evolved into the Super Hornet but that went way over your head and there's quite frankly no concept here simpler than upsizing so I don't see how you're gonna understand anything at all.

Get me a source on the 3-5 minute afterburner fuel limit on the J-10... if you didn't make it up.

manqiangrexue said:

Of course I don't understand. Nobody here understands you because you are always wrong...

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Nobody is always wrong. And even though b787's style of posting can at times be annoying it in no way means he is always inaccurate.

Plus, do you now the max speed of the J-10B/C? The mach 2.2 value is for the original J-10 with the variable inlet. Specifications for the J-10B/C including max speed in unknown. The original flanker top speed was Mach 2.35 but the Su-35S despite having far more powerful engines is limited to Mach 2.25. The reason speculated here is the modification made to the inlet to reduce RCS.