Self Propelled Gun/Rocket Launcher

Taiban

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Since you sarcastically called me an expert, I will pretend to be an expert for a minute. According to the
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, each PLA Group Army artillery brigade has four battalions (albeit notionally): one battalion armed with 122mm MLRS, one battalion armed with 300mm MLRS, and two battalions armed with howitzers of various calibers. Therefore, according to Publication ATP 7-100.3, a PLA Group Army artillery brigade is unlikely to contain a 5th battalion, at le
From the reference of the same pamphlet US TRADOC has drawn a Firepower series infographic on its 'China Landing Zone' Section

It's a bit old but first point of a composition of a Firepower Battalion of Combined Arms Brigade will be agreed to that it has 3 Howitzer batteries/companies, 1 MLRS and 1 ATGM battery each. Pdf downloaded from site is enclosed
 

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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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From the reference of the same pamphlet US TRADOC has drawn a Firepower series infographic on its 'China Landing Zone' Section

It's a bit old but first point of a composition of a Firepower Battalion of Combined Arms Brigade will be agreed to that it has 3 Howitzer batteries/companies, 1 MLRS and 1 ATGM battery each. Pdf downloaded from site is enclosed

So, I have no horse in this race, and I'm just talking as a reader of this exchange.

Specifically, the claim that is being challenged, is your assertion that a PLA artillery brigade is made up of six battalions.
The artillery/firepower battalion of a Combined Arms Brigade is irrelevant, so I'm not sure why you are bringing that up.


At this point, either you should provide some evidence that a PLA artillery brigade has six battalions, or take the option to retract your claim. There's no shame in retracting a claim if you've realized in retrospect that you've overreached.
 

by78

General
From the reference of the same pamphlet US TRADOC has drawn a Firepower series infographic on its 'China Landing Zone' Section

It's a bit old but first point of a composition of a Firepower Battalion of Combined Arms Brigade will be agreed to that it has 3 Howitzer batteries/companies, 1 MLRS and 1 ATGM battery each. Pdf downloaded from site is enclosed

The PDF you provided is about PLA Group Army's combined arms brigades. It is completely irrelevant to our discussion, which is about PLA Group Army's artillery brigade. Don't you know the difference between a combined arms brigade and an artillery brigade? Let me explain the difference to you.

Here's a description of a PLA Group Army from Publication ATP 7-100.3 (Chapter 2, section 2-17):
The main combat power of the notional group army consists of its six combined arms brigades (CA-BDEs). These brigades are supported by one artillery brigade; one air defense brigade; an aviation brigade; an SOF brigade; an engineer and chemical defense brigade; and a service support brigade, consisting of logistics, transportation, medical, repair, ammunition, communications, unmanned aircraft systems (UAS), and EW units. The 2017 reorganization placed a greater emphasis on system warfare capabilities at the group army level, providing a much more extensive suite of EW and cyber capabilities, long-range reconnaissance, and long-range fires under the direct control of group army commanders. Group army commanders can now support their assigned CA-BDEs with a significant suite of capabilities able to influence operations across all domains

Here's the organizational chart of a PLA Group Army:
53068897337_c6ffafb1d1_z.jpg


Let me remind you again that our discussion is about the Artillery Brigade, because in your original post, your claim was about the "77th Group Army's Artillery Brigade":
53069989328_1a95e61563_h.jpg



In other words, this discussion has always been about the Artillery Brigade and was never about Combined Arms Brigades, so please stop talking about Combined Arms Brigades.
 
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Taiban

Junior Member
Registered Member
The PDF you provided is about PLA Group Army's combined arms brigades. It is completely irrelevant to our discussion, which is about PLA Group Army's artillery brigade. Don't you know the difference between a combined arms brigade and an artillery brigade? Let me explain the difference to you.

Here's a description of a PLA Group Army from Publication ATP 7-100.3 (Chapter 2, section 2-17):


Here's the organizational chart of a PLA Group Army:
53068897337_c6ffafb1d1_z.jpg


Let me remind you again that our discussion is about the Artillery Brigade, because in your original post, your claim was about the "77th Group Army's Artillery Brigade":
53069989328_1a95e61563_h.jpg



In other words, this discussion has always been about the Artillery Brigade and was never about Combined Arms Brigades, so please stop talking about Combined Arms Brigades.
I have asked for time to prove right from Combined Arms Brigades onwards

Since you have agreed to only Group Army Artillery brigade, let's start gradually.

I am sharing a latest Chinese site article. Will gradually share all. Please be patient

Difference in Group Army Artillery Brigade's organizations of ETC & WTC from other TCs

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Taiban

Junior Member
Registered Member
artillery brigade has 6 battalions it means it has 12 to 18 batteries managed by a single hq with a single recon/UAV unit.
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A detailed article on Chinese intended employment of PCL191 against Taiwan and how CH4 UCAVs from other UAV Brigades in ETC would have to be used & have been used

One UAV company will not suffice for such variety of long range equipment. You are absolutely right but PLA is working out alternatives for both UAV support & AD protection
 

by78

General
I have asked for time to prove right from Combined Arms Brigades onwards

Since you have agreed to only Group Army Artillery brigade, let's start gradually.

Forget about Combined Arms Brigades. Focus only on the Artillery Brigade, because this is what your original claim was about (see image below). Jesus Christ, just how many times do I have to repeat myself? Why is it so hard to get you to focus on what is relevant?

53069989328_1a95e61563_h.jpg



I am sharing a latest Chinese site article. Will gradually share all. Please be patient

Difference in Group Army Artillery Brigade's organizations of ETC & WTC from other TCs

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Are you serious or are you trying to insult my intelligence? That's an absolutely garbage article from a crappy website. The
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is a freelance contributor who writes all kinds of nonsense, including articles about a
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, a drunk
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, a
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wall that collapsed from strong wind, and an African
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who was set on fire.

Frankly, I'm now questioning your judgement. You don't seem to have the necessary discernment to distinguish between credible and non-credible sources of information, nor are you capable of following basic logic and making cogent arguments. You also seem unable to grasp simple concepts and basic information, despite having them explained to you repeatedly.
 
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Taiban

Junior Member
Registered Member
Frankly, I'm now questioning your judgement. You don't seem to have the necessary discernment to distinguish between credible and non-credible sources of information, nor are you capable of following basic logic and making cogent arguments. You also seem unable to grasp simple concepts and basic information, despite having them explained to you repeatedly.
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The location of 85th Artillery Brigade.

Now sharing locations of various Howitzers lying in open (PCL181 & PL66) & MLRS (PCL191 & PHL03) Few could be inside sheds too. Numbers indicate possibilities of 3 MLRS Battalions & >2 Howitzer battalions

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Well, it will be my privilege to prove things reliably through OSINT which PLA doesn't give much chance.

Anyway, the vehicle series numbers was adequate proof. Will still try to provide as much evidence as possible
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
But first understand the unique structure of Artillery in PLA of a standard Group Army by excluding Xinjiang (also 84th GroupArmy) and Tibet Military Regions (also 85th Group Army)

and

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The location of 85th Artillery Brigade.

Now sharing locations of various Howitzers lying in open (PCL181 & PL66) & MLRS (PCL191 & PHL03) Few could be inside sheds too. Numbers indicate possibilities of 3 MLRS Battalions & >2 Howitzer battalions

Group army support units share the number of the group army. If 85th Group Army has such unique structure that requires it to be excluded from considerations then satellite images of 85th Artillery Brigade which is a support unit of said 85th Group Army can't be used as evidence for general structure of group army artillery brigades.

Furthermore we can't claim factual knowledge of structures simply because an image or a data set suggests one possible interpretation. A valid interpretation must also match factual knowledge as closely as possible. Factual knowledge includes:
  • presence of logistics
  • viable artillery tactics
  • physical parameters of fire missions
  • presence of possible counter-battery fire
Therefore:

The satellite image shows the entire brigade at base which naturally will include all logistical vehicles.

For comparison these are the two types of base vehicles in the 9K58 Smerch (BM-30) system:

9A52 launcher vehicle (боевая машина комплекса РСЗО 9К58)
640px-Army2016demo-065.jpg


9T234-2 ammunition resupply vehicle (Транспортно-заряжающая машина 9Т234-2 комплекса РСЗО 9К58)
640px-Army2016demo-068.jpg

640px-Army2016demo-070.jpg


Both vehicles use the same МАЗ-543 chassis which when covered with a tarp makes them indistinguishable from above when viewed at resolution available to the public. At better resolution the only indication is the driver's cabin which is different. This won't be true of PHL-03 which has a different cabin structure altogether so I would expect that publicly available imagery won't be useful for making the distinction. And if the vehicles are covered in their entirety as on the satellite image from your link then visual identification is impossible altogether.

On the images I counted 63 vehicles that could match size with PHL-03 arranged in 3 groups of 21 vehicles.

This is visual representation of a 9K57 (BM-27 Uragan) 220mm MLRS battalion in the 2008 structure (enlarge):
RU_art_rocket_2000px.png

A battalion has 2 batteries of 8 launchers (2 platoons of 4) and 4 resupply vehicles and a separate resupply battery of 8 resupply vehicles with a total 24 vehicles using identical chassis.

This is however a different system with greater number of launch tubes per launchers (16 for BM-27 compared to 12 for BM-30).

If we assume that this structure is repliacted by PHL-03 and that in each instance 3 vehicles per battalion are kept in garage then it matches the structure. If not then we can assume that the structure is different, perhaps with only 3 resupply vehicles per platoon instead of 4.

Alternatively PLA could field a different structure for 300mm MLRS - for example 2 batteries of 9 launchers (3 platoons of 3) with a single separate resupply platoon of 3 vehicles. This structure would match the total 21 vehicles shown on the image without the need to assume hidden vehicles, and would also match an existing artillery tactic which places higher emphasis on massed fire with immediate relocation compared to Russian tactic which allows for reloading of launchers while in firing position. Russians put less emphasis on movement because they assumed ground fire superiority due to the number of artillery systems in their structures compared to potential enemy force.

It would also match the new US Army structure for M142 battalions. Previous structure had 18 M142 per battalions - 3 batteries of 6 launchers each (3 platoons of 2). Current structure has 27 M142 per battalion - 3 batteries of 9 launchers (3 platoons of 3). Note that M142 has excellent logistical capacity due to the built in crane but it was still seen as preferable to have more units ready for action.

Considering that 85th Group Army is stationed in Tibet and with geography in mind we can assume that having an artillery brigade of 5 battalions - 3 long-range MLRS , 1 light howitzer (truck-mounted) and 1 light howitzer (airmobile) - is definitely plausible. And the two groupings of equipment to the left look like a battalion of towed light guns under tarps and 122mm truck-mounted howitzers. It also matches a tactic that is already used e.g. in the US Army in airborne infantry brigades and tested in some other NATO militaries.

And despite all that I just wrote it is still an interpretation for this particular brigade. We can't know for certain.

The logical conclusions for other brigades are as stated previously.

Study of detailed organizational structure requires a lot of dots to be joined. Except US, No country generally put its internal organization structure for all to see on a platter.

All NATO and EU/EEA countries, as well as Australia have information on the basic structure of their units publicly available. Publicly available doesn't mean however readily available. Sometimes effort is necessary to find the information but it is there.

Russian armed forces also were very open about their structure. Whether it will continue remains to be seen but the problem with Russian structure is lack of online presence of most units outside of runet (Russian-language internet) and the two waves of reforms between 2008 and 2012 which created confusion between pre-2008, 2008-2010 "new model" and post-2012 structures. But similarly to NATO structures it can be found with a little effort and patience. It's much easier if you speak some Russian so as to communicate with Russian-speaking users in online communities, even with the help of an online translator.
 

Taiban

Junior Member
Registered Member
Group army support units share the number of the group army. If 85th Group Army has such unique structure that requires it to be excluded from considerations then satellite images of 85th Artillery Brigade which is a support unit of said 85th Group Army can't be used as evidence for general structure of group army artillery brigades.
85th Group Army has only three Combined Arms Brigades - 52nd, 53rd & 54th as compared to six in a normal group army but has eight border defense regiments from 351st to 358th. As I said earlier, I will take some time & provide valid proof for others too.
  • viable artillery tactics
  • physical parameters of fire missions
  • presence of possible counter-battery fire
All PLA's manuals and documents translated by CASI show a move to Multi-Domain Precision Warfare. Even during Pelosi's visit on 04 August 2022, PCL191 ex PLAGF were used in conjunction with PLARF's SRBMs.

Xi's address during March 2023 too emphasized on New Domain New Strategic Forces with focus on satellite internet (SSF) and Precision weapons.

In 2017, PLA started extensively showing PHL03 in training exercises and PCL191 from 2021-2022 onwards. While the PL66 are not being inducted anymore, photographs shared of all new inductions are of PCL181 and PCL191.

PHL11 / Type 11 MLRS provision at the level of Combined Arms Brigades ensures a decent Counter Bombardment fire capability at Below-the-neck capability
 

by78

General
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The location of 85th Artillery Brigade.

Now sharing locations of various Howitzers lying in open (PCL181 & PL66) & MLRS (PCL191 & PHL03) Few could be inside sheds too. Numbers indicate possibilities of 3 MLRS Battalions & >2 Howitzer battalions

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Well, it will be my privilege to prove things reliably through OSINT which PLA doesn't give much chance.

Anyway, the vehicle series numbers was adequate proof. Will still try to provide as much evidence as possible

Please answer the following questions:
1) How do you know this base is the location of the 85th Artillery Brigade?
2) How do you know this base is not shared with other units such as the Lhasa-based 54th and 55th Combined Arms Brigades?
3) How do you know the equipment in the satellite images belong exclusively to the 85th Artillery Brigade?
4) How did you identify PHL16 and PHL03s from the satellite images? Do you have X-ray vision?

Frankly, it's impossible to make positive identification from some grainy rectangles in a low-resolution satellite photo. To my eyes, many –– if not most –– of the largest vehicles in the image could be the 8x8 HMV3 heavy trucks carrying various payload modules (see first image below). HMV3s are
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in great numbers, and they have similar dimensions to PHL16 and PHL03, so it would be very difficult to distinguish them when they appear as grainy rectangles covered in tarpaulin.

To make identification of PHL03s even more difficult, its supply vehicles share the same dimensions as the launcher vehicles (see second image below), so again it would be very hard distinguish them in grainy satellite imagery.

I think you're making too many untested assumptions and taking too many liberties with your interpretation of the satellite images. You don't seem to know how to exercise skepticism, nor do you know how to apply basic logic in analyzing available evidence. Instead of starting with a set of assumptions and rigorous testing them in order to arrive at a conclusion, you jump to a conclusion first and then stretch facts to support that conclusion, while willfully discarding alternative explanations and evidence that contradict your premature conclusion.

Shaanxi HMV3 heavy tactical off-road trucks:
50711791241_3872ec7eda_h.jpg


PHL03 and ammo resupply vehicles:
52014952931_f0eaf75d1d_k.jpg
 
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