Sad ending of a great empire

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Right now I would lay money that the Scottish Nationalists are working on that as we speak, and if the three major parties in London have any brains there top political egg heads skipped the champagne and celebrating, have locked them selves in a conference room and called out for take out as they are going to be looking over every detail of the city's and counties in Scotland that voted to succeed and the region as a whole. They know this is not the end and as a voluntary signature of the UK this will come back. The United kingdom didn't so much as win as the Scottish Nationalist Lost. The UK government needs now to take the lessons learned and push a serious campaign to promote the solidarity of the UK as a whole with the goal that when the next votes are counted they at least get a solid 60%.

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The weirdest part of this is that Westminster unilaterally changed the question only a week away from the vote.
The Original question was Yes: Independence. No: Staus Quo
When the poll that showed a majority for Independence was produced a week ago this all changed and the question became
Yes: Independence. No: DevoMax. The status quo was unilaterally dumped and this of course applies to the whole UK not just Scotland.

Westminster had a chance to put a three part question right at the beginning of Independence, DevoMax and Status Quo, but they rejected it. They must be kicking themselves now. Had they done so they may have split the Independence Vote and shown at least the largest minority for the Status Quo. At the very least they would have taken the steam out of Independence and shown a majority for DevoMax and that would have parked the question.

In the event we have nothing remotely like.

Feeling gutted at today's result, I know it will hurt for a while but will look back on it and be so honoured to have been part of such an historic occasion. My thanks to all who worked so hard with us to gain a still incredible 45% for independence, my congrats also to all No-camp campaigners on the result. We will move forward together as one nation and I will always work with anyone to create a better Scotland for all.

SampanViking said:

The weirdest part of this is that Westminster unilaterally changed the question only a week away from the vote.
The Original question was Yes: Independence. No: Staus Quo
When the poll that showed a majority for Independence was produced a week ago this all changed and the question became
Yes: Independence. No: DevoMax. The status quo was unilaterally dumped and this of course applies to the whole UK not just Scotland.

Westminster had a chance to put a three part question right at the beginning of Independence, DevoMax and Status Quo, but they rejected it. They must be kicking themselves now. Had they done so they may have split the Independence Vote and shown at least the largest minority for the Status Quo. At the very least they would have taken the steam out of Independence and shown a majority for DevoMax and that would have parked the question.

In the event we have nothing remotely like.

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But will they deliver DevoMax? And If they do what will be the shape of DevoMax for the Wales, the North, Cornwell, Mercia?

Defiant Catalans push ahead for independence referendum

Catalonia’s government vows to defy Spanish state by holding referendum on independence, expressing regret that Scotland did not set a separatist precedent for the European Union




I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

asif iqbal said:

Feeling gutted at today's result, I know it will hurt for a while but will look back on it and be so honoured to have been part of such an historic occasion. My thanks to all who worked so hard with us to gain a still incredible 45% for independence, my congrats also to all No-camp campaigners on the result. We will move forward together as one nation and I will always work with anyone to create a better Scotland for all.

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They say hind-sight is 20/20, and in retrospect, I think Salmond should have pushed hard for devomax first before going with the referendum. I think it's pretty clear that Westminster's last minute promise is what secured the victory for the No camp.

Of course, if the Quebec referendums are any indication, the results don't matter as much as the aftermaths of the referendum. People are naturally risk-averse, so the SNP would be wise to concentrate on autonomy first before seeking another referendum.

solarz said:

They say hind-sight is 20/20, and in retrospect, I think Salmond should have pushed hard for devomax first before going with the referendum. I think it's pretty clear that Westminster's last minute promise is what secured the victory for the No camp.

Of course, if the Quebec referendums are any indication, the results don't matter as much as the aftermaths of the referendum. People are naturally risk-averse, so the SNP would be wise to concentrate on autonomy first before seeking another referendum.

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They will first have to get the DevoMax that was promised and might well get more of it than when that had been their target. As John Major said the devolution of the nineties had been a "mistake" that made this possible. It will take time but Alex Salmond might well live to see it.

delft said:

But will they deliver DevoMax? And If they do what will be the shape of DevoMax for the Wales, the North, Cornwell, Mercia?

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That will be the next chapter in the saga, whether the promises made will be delivered.

solarz said:

They say hind-sight is 20/20, and in retrospect, I think Salmond should have pushed hard for devomax first before going with the referendum. I think it's pretty clear that Westminster's last minute promise is what secured the victory for the No camp.

Of course, if the Quebec referendums are any indication, the results don't matter as much as the aftermaths of the referendum. People are naturally risk-averse, so the SNP would be wise to concentrate on autonomy first before seeking another referendum.

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Without fully knowing the rules used for this vote, what Westminster offered at the last minute, can it be construed as rigging the vote? I also feel that if this was a simple Yes/No vote and not Yes/No with devomax, the Yes would have won. The uncertainty of an independent Scotland along with a No but more autonomy promised in a comfortable and well known union arrangement certainly changed a few folks' decisions.

Was devomax even available in the beginning? Because my understanding was that Scotland was not happy with the lack of automony and Westminster really didn't want to grant more autonomy, the independence referendum was given because they confidently felt that won't happen and it would be a win-win for them, no independence and no greater autonomy. So this last min offer was a reactive decision as they were taken by surprise that the independent camp did have a real chance of winning.

joshuatree said:

Was devomax even available in the beginning? Because my understanding was that Scotland was not happy with the lack of automony and Westminster really didn't want to grant more autonomy, the independence referendum was given because they confidently felt that won't happen and it would be a win-win for them, no independence and no great autonomy. So this last min offer was a reactive decision as they were taken by surprise that the independent camp did have a real chance of winning.

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Indeed, if full independence was not necessarily the only acceptable outcome, then this referendum was a win-win for the SNP. However, I don't understand why Salmond resigned. By all accounts, he did an amazing job.

Kremlin Television giving you North Korea etc.
"Russia’s state-funded English news channel RT has aired doubts about the referendum and the size of the turnout, by giving a platform to a conspiracy theorist.

Its commentator Afshin Rattansi, presenter of RT’s Going
Underground
show, suggested the result could have been rigged: “There weren’t UN observers. This may seem an absurd point to some, but this is a nuclear power in Scotland. There were international considerations – Britain’s nuclear deterrent. And with the vote as close as this, with the mainstream media on one side, with a massive amount of people from Westminster running up to beg Scotland the other way, and certain recounts in certain bits of the poll, which way did the vote go, really?”

He added: “It is normally the sort of turnout you would expect in North Korea. Usually media here would go ‘we don’t believe it. How can it be nearly 90%?’”

quote from under the
12.18pm BST
entry, where there's a video available, too

asif iqbal said:

Feeling gutted at today's result, I know it will hurt for a while but will look back on it and be so honoured to have been part of such an historic occasion. My thanks to all who worked so hard with us to gain a still incredible 45% for independence, my congrats also to all No-camp campaigners on the result. We will move forward together as one nation and I will always work with anyone to create a better Scotland for all.

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Well don't feel to gutted as Independence is no mean feat and your movement has gained significant ground against the full weight of a major developed nation and other interests which surround it. You have come out much stronger than when you went in and have won very major concessions from Westminster.

Beyond currency concerns, you also had to convince the electorate that Scotland had the actual technical ability to effectively run a full Government and by extension the country. Its a real concern and that you only needed a further 6% to believe is a great credit to all of you.

Push now for all the trappings of statehood to the point that Scotland operates as a independent state in all but name. The result certainly warrants the hard headed demand for powers of this magnitude and when won, it will answer the competency question in plenty of time for the inevitable re-run of the question and ensure that that time, Westminster has no bribes left with which to buy off waverers.

solarz said:

Indeed, if full independence was not necessarily the only acceptable outcome, then this referendum was a win-win for the SNP. However, I don't understand why Salmond resigned. By all accounts, he did an amazing job.

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I suspect the man is exhausted and has already "done" most of what will now be on offer. Plus of course getting Westminster to honour its commitments will be like wrestling with a pit of greased snakes!