Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Gloire_bb]

I estimate

Oh those eyeball RCSmeters.

Light bomber fan squad keeps its level.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Oh those eyeball RCSmeters.

Light bomber fan squad keeps its level.

The Russians themselves stated time and again, they placed more emphasis on aggressive maneuvering aspect of the design as we see it today.

As such there is some grounds for such. I think is estimate is a bit high I would have gone to 70-90 Km range. Of course opinion are like a curtain orifice, everyone has it and they all think there’s don’t stink.
this is part of why the emphasis on extreme range missiles is less an issue for fifth gens vs fourth gens.
As by the time a fourth gen even with a Very long range air to air missile get a lock on its been in the kill envelope of the fifth gen for a long time and is likely about to have a close encounter of the deadly kind.

Also the Russians have said that they aimed to make the SU57 more multi role than F22. A number of there RT documentaries and interviews have made that claim. F22 can multi role but it’s like going to the super market a Aston Martin. It happens you know it does, but you still feel like it shouldn’t.

For the US the aim was a mix Super performing Raptors killing enemy air well super sensor Lightning is doing the less sexy jobs.

the Pak-fa probably won’t have a sibling other than drones. As time goes by it seems more and more likely that this is Russia’s only VLO manned platform. Without even the hyped naval versions.

That said the estimates are based on a number of clearly visible stealth issues on the SU57 as it exists. Some of those may be addressed by more developed versions. Although to what degree is still questionable as the Russians don’t seem to have the infrastructure to support the kind of all in stealth at all there bases.

 

[Brumby]

The Russians themselves stated time and again, they placed more emphasis on aggressive maneuvering aspect of the design as we see it today.
View attachment 54284
As such there is some grounds for such. I think is estimate is a bit high I would have gone to 70-90 Km range. Of course opinion are like a curtain orifice, everyone has it and they all think there’s don’t stink.
this is part of why the emphasis on extreme range missiles is less an issue for fifth gens vs fourth gens.
As by the time a fourth gen even with a Very long range air to air missile get a lock on its been in the kill envelope of the fifth gen for a long time and is likely about to have a close encounter of the deadly kind.

Also the Russians have said that they aimed to make the SU57 more multi role than F22. A number of there RT documentaries and interviews have made that claim. F22 can multi role but it’s like going to the super market a Aston Martin. It happens you know it does, but you still feel like it shouldn’t.

For the US the aim was a mix Super performing Raptors killing enemy air well super sensor Lightning is doing the less sexy jobs.

the Pak-fa probably won’t have a sibling other than drones. As time goes by it seems more and more likely that this is Russia’s only VLO manned platform. Without even the hyped naval versions.

That said the estimates are based on a number of clearly visible stealth issues on the SU57 as it exists. Some of those may be addressed by more developed versions. Although to what degree is still questionable as the Russians don’t seem to have the infrastructure to support the kind of all in stealth at all there bases.

The estimated detection range is based on Russian source on the RCS of the SU-57 at 0.5m2 and then applying radar equation to determine the detection range by an APG-81 radar. It is actually straight forward.



Independently, there is an article that reported a similar proximity to my determination.

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For example, an F-35 can detect a semi-stealthy fighter such as a TYPHOON, RAFALE or F-18E at 120km, while they can only detect the F-35 at a 33-38km distance.

There are even rumours that the Sukhoi Su-50, whose RCS is in the 0.1-1m2 range, according to Russian sources, can be detected at 120-150km by the AN/APG-81 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. This radar can track 23 targets in nine seconds and engage 19 of them in 2.4 seconds. In addition, and can be coupled with the AN/ASQ-239 EW/ECM suite for false target generation and range-gate stealing using digital RF memory (DRFM) techniques. Key sensors include the AAQ-40 electro-optical targeting system (EOTS), AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System (DAS), and the Threat Nullification Defensive Resource (ThNDR) DIRCM.

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[AndrewS]

The Russians themselves stated time and again, they placed more emphasis on aggressive maneuvering aspect of the design as we see it today.

Yes, but that looks more and more like a huge mistake, given how the effectiveness of short-range air-to-air missiles able to fire in any direction.

 

[Jura The idiot]

Yes, but that looks more and more like a huge mistake, given how the effectiveness of short-range air-to-air missiles able to fire in any direction.

while Sep 4, 2017

...

in real world,
How did a 30 year-old Su-22 defeat a modern AIM-9X?

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on June 18 over Syria, after a Super Hornet hadn't hit a Su-24 with a Sidewinder at close range (by the way I'm guessing the vendor declared Pk of almost one for such an encounter EDIT OK this is what vendors always do), the US pilot used a different TYPE of missile (an AMRAAM ... at close range) ...

instead your "effectiveness" fairy tale you might want to listen to

since 05:10

 

[Anlsvrthng]

The overall conversation about technological gap imo is rather moot because the underlying difference between the encrypted communication link with the SU-57 and that of the stealthy MADL link with the F-35 is entirely different in its effects. The SU-57 is not stealthy in comparison to the F-35 or the F-22. I estimate that the APG-81 can pick up a SU-57 at a range of between 150 to 170 kms. In other words, it cannot easily hide itself against modern sensors and hence the notion of stealthy communications is rather redundant. In contrast, the F-35 which is meant to operate stealthily and stealth com link is necessarily part and parcel of that package.

This leads me to question the overall utility of encrypted com link planned for the SU-57. Any adversary that plans to take on the SU-57 likely knows its presence. The primary objective of any ECM against it is in denial or disruption to its com link and not to read its messages. LOL. There are typically two primary defensive features available for communication security and that is detection and jam resistance. The former is via LPI and LPD features but since the SU-57 is not decisively stealthy, the underlying platform itself is a giveaway. That leaves bandwidth frequency that may offer some degree of jam resistance. Since we don't know what frequency it operates in we can't make any reasonable determination. Clearly encryption doesn't help.

Interesting, a radar sized like the APG-81 in good geometry maybe can see a mig-21 from 150 km.

Can you share your calculation method ?
The F-35 has a very small nose, means the its radar is inferior compared to the f-22 or any advanced Su 25 derivative.

All of this "stealthy MADL link " (TM of Raytheon) is nothing else just the same beam forming that the 3G/4G/5G antenna towers doing.

Oh, and the 5G handsets needs to use beam forming on the millimetre wavelength as well, in more advanced way than the F-35.

And if we want to see even older stealthy, jam resistant communication system then you can consider this :

Just to clarify: the overly mystified f35 stealthy communication link is nothing else just the good old 100 years old directional antenna, in phased array design, like the first German radar in the 2nd WW.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

while Sep 4, 2017


instead your "effectiveness" fairy tale you might want to listen to

since 05:10

because it employed a countermeasure that worked once. But that Su22 still bit the dust as soon as a Radar guided missile was shot up its tail pipe.
This is a long running issue with having single mode seekers and different countermeasures.

 

[Jura The idiot]

because it employed a countermeasure that worked once. But that Su22 still bit the dust as soon as a Radar guided missile was shot up its tail pipe.
This is a long running issue with having single mode seekers and different countermeasures.

great you have all ends covered, LOL

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

great you have all ends covered, LOL

Oh please.
Back in the 60-70’s the US got ahold of some Russian aircraft, In testing the they discovered that the Sidewinder seeker heads liked the Russian IR flares but didn’t the American ones.
The Russian flares burn differently something about the chemical mix.
Seems like that issue still plagues the current sidewinders.
However in the incident you posted the F/A18 crew still had the AMRAAM and used it after the sidewinder chased the flare.
It’s likely part of the reason the Israelis Air Force was testing Stunner missiles minus the first stage booster as a close range missile.

 

[Brumby]

Interesting, a radar sized like the APG-81 in good geometry maybe can see a mig-21 from 150 km.

Can you share your calculation method ?
The F-35 has a very small nose, means the its radar is inferior compared to the f-22 or any advanced Su 25 derivative.

All of this "stealthy MADL link " (TM of Raytheon) is nothing else just the same beam forming that the 3G/4G/5G antenna towers doing.

Oh, and the 5G handsets needs to use beam forming on the millimetre wavelength as well, in more advanced way than the F-35.

And if we want to see even older stealthy, jam resistant communication system then you can consider this :

Just to clarify: the overly mystified f35 stealthy communication link is nothing else just the good old 100 years old directional antenna, in phased array design, like the first German radar in the 2nd WW.

Your arguments are typically full of logical fallacies and why we don't take your comments seriously. I am saying it so that you know.