Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I'm surprise there has been very little discussion about India withdrawing from FGFA.

Nothing in PDF, Indian forums, Russian forums. Only on Reddit geopolitics forum was here huge conversation.
Well for one thing the rumor mill had been talking about India pulling out of the program for almost 2 years now.
So all the arguments have happened over the last years. This is basically the final confirmation. The Russians will claim India was at fault and the Indians the Russians but the Devorce paperwork is signed on this.
The Indians changed there wants of the program and were less than salivating investors. It's a bit like what happened with early Tanks. First encounter was a impressive as hell, sent people into a panic, Adversarys demanded a response, then time set in and people saw it's flaws, and the attitude changed, command looks at it and wonders if it's the right thing for them or if maybe they would be better served by another platform.

The trend is also visible that India is moving more to the open market for it's new military kit. The Isrealis, Japanese, Americans and European makers are getting a fairer shake alongside the Russian and indigenous programs.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'm surprise there has been very little discussion about India withdrawing from FGFA.

Nothing in PDF, Indian forums, Russian forums. Only on Reddit geopolitics forum was here huge conversation.

Someone please show me more discussion, I want to bask in the cry babies previously boasting about Indian Brahmos superiority with FGFA. Or Russians nationalist dismissing J-20 tech as junk.

For close to decade they boast about superior India tech, Russia tech. Now it's time to see how they rationalize this with nationalism.

Once the dust settles and truth is slowly revealed, the same talkative characters are nowhere to be found. Too busy rationalising, finding new people to blame, and making up excuses to hide their own flaws. Now the saying is that Su-57 is still really pretty awesome and India is just opening up their options... blah blah.... shifting to align with the west... blah blah.... AMCA.... blah blah. The rest of us can feel our suspicions of their incompetence is validated a little bit more. If the mountains of evidence wasn't already enough.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
Side facing radars and such feature on Russian fighters due to their general doctrine of unit self-reliance.

It was seriously considered (along with IRST, BTW) for the F-22, to the point that the production airframes were actually built with compartments reserved for the side-looking arrays. Were these omissions (to which you might further add the missing HMD) really due to lack of need or rather a lack of budget? I would hesitate to jump to a conclusion.

Western doctrines make such features pointless with the superiority in numbers, sensors, AWACs etc they have.

It is worth noting that the USSR was (along with Sweden) was one of the fastest adopters of intra- and inter-flight data-linking. By the early 1990s, there were about 1000 Su-27s and MiG-31s with such capabilities in service, against <100 F-15s and F-14 with JTIDS in the US (the fact that Link-16 is more capable notwithstanding). It took the US the better part of a decade to reverse that situation with the lower-cost MIDS terminal.

This is one of the most common misconceptions about late Cold War Russian fighters, and the reason why the popular dismissal of the Su-27's combat effectiveness based on extrapolating its similarity to the MiG-29 in terms of avionics is so incorrect. Yes, the radar is based on the same technology (apart from being larger and hence longer-ranged), but the Su-27 has the TKS-27 intra-flight data-link which completely mitigates the poor situational awareness so often criticized in the MiG.

Quite apart from the fact that *early* Teen-Fighter radars were nowhere near as good as people frequently assume based on the specs achieved in later models (compare the number of targets tracked or the MTBFs to the N001 and the latter doesn't look so shabby at all).

Weapons bay configuration seems like a weakness to me. Small capacity (pretty much proven), bad layout (centre of mass changes more significantly than the conventional layout used by F-22) so really not any better than its peers.

Small weapons bay capacity? Show me another fighter that can hold 2 SRAAMs + 4 (!) 800kg JSM equivalents internally... Certainly not even the F-35, and in terms of A/G munitions that's obviously one of the best 5th generation contenders.

The modest (MR)AAM load on the Su-57 is weird but certainly not caused by lack of bay volume. Even allowing for the problem that the precise dimensions are not known, it's almost a certainty that with folding tails on a R-77-like MRAAM (minor mod, they already fold for ground storage) each main bay could hold 3 missiles.

As for the CoG changes due to the tandem bay configuration, Sukhoi is intimately familiar with a very F-22-like layout from the Su-47 and considered it again in one of the designs leading up to the Su-57. If it was superior, why did they abandon it?

We've never seen a genuine photo showing capacity or firing. Why assume Su-57's weapons bay is something to be "liked" as they say.

Until 10 November 1988, the public had not seen a photo of the F-117 either, yet it had been in existence for 7.5 years by then (and considering its combat debut came just over 12 months later, it will have been dropping bombs before then). Just because there's no photo doesn't mean it didn't happen - we've not seen a picture of the bay open in flight to date either, but thanks to a leaked slide it is known to have been done by 2014 (quite apart from the mock-up bay flown on the Su-47 in 2008).

SU57 is not a Short take off bird in the same way. It needs some length to get airborne but the Russian concept pushed for less care as to the overall state of the field.

In fact I think they're overdoing it in that regard. Looking at the relative location of the nose wheel(s) and intake apertures on the F/A-18 & YF-23 suggests the Su-57 (and perhaps Su-27 family) might actually get away without FOD screens in the intakes according to Western practise. Given the weight and maintenance burden, that has to be a tempting consideration.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
...Weapons bay configuration seems like a weakness to me. Small capacity (pretty much proven), bad layout (centre of mass changes more significantly than the conventional layout used by F-22) so really not any better than its peers. We've never seen a genuine photo showing capacity or firing. Why assume Su-57's weapons bay is something to be "liked" as they say....

One big criticism of the F-22 was its wafer-thin weapons bay. This was probably one reason why it was cancelled. It could at most carry 2x 1000 lbs JDAMs. We will have to wait and see whether the J-20 weapons bay is singnificantly deeper than the F-22. F-35 does not have this limitation. Ironically the YF-23 had a deeper weapons bay.

Russians wanted to avoid this. Su-57 bays were designed with air-to-ground munitions in mind. For the moment in an BVR scenario it can carry upto 4x R-77 and for ultra-long range BVR engangements 4x Izd. 810 (R-37M variant with range possibly exceeding 300 km) . So the Su-57 can carry the ultra-long range BVR load of a MiG-31BM INTERNALLY! Some of the internal A-to-G munitions include Kh-38M and Kh-58UShK. The Su-57 designers clearly sort a balance. That meant certain compromises have to be made. That's life. And who knows, in the future they might find a way to create a modified ejector arrangement that'll enable upto 3x R-77 in a single bay.

Oh, and regarding, not seeing any genuine photo showing capacity of firing? By that definition I can say the only 5th gen aircraft that has proven in carrying real life weapons loads would be the F-22 and F-35. F-22 has been deployed in combat and F-35 testing of internal weapons is well documented.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
One big criticism of the F-22 was its wafer-thin weapons bay. This was probably one reason why it was cancelled. It could at most carry 2x 1000 lbs JDAMs. We will have to wait and see whether the J-20 weapons bay is singnificantly deeper than the F-22.
The 2 1000 lbs limitation comes in because the F22 would still have 2 Aim 120's for self defense in the same bay. If you just wanted to run a bombing run you could add more JDAMS but if Air defense was not an issue you can also carry additional external stores. Another factor is that the missiles used by the Chinese and Russians tend to be a bit bigger in size meaning that the same ordinance takes up more room.
F22 was canceled more for political issues.
F-35 does not have this limitation.
F35 has much smaller weapons load outs. in an Air to Air configuration 2 Aim 9 side winders and 6 Aim 120 for the Raptor. even if you add in another rail option which has been offered F35 is still only able to carry 6 missiles internally. F35 will be more reliant on External stores than F22, A feature the J20 and SU57 seem to ignore.

QUOTE="Hyperwarp, post: 506757, member: 3545"]Ironically the YF-23 had a deeper weapons bay.[/QUOTE] Deeper perhaps but the YF23 weapons bays were more restricted as it combined The Aim 9 and Aim 120 into the same bay this resulted in a load out of 3 Aim 120 with 2 Aim 9 missiles. To correct this for there proposal of changes between the YF23 and a offered F23 Northrop wanted to add a second weapons bay in front of the YF23's bay this would have lengthened the fuselage by 2.5 feet making a 70 foot long fighter, increasing drag on the bird but still wouldn't have resulted in a equal payload to the Raptor

Oh, and regarding, not seeing any genuine photo showing capacity of firing? By that definition I can say the only 5th gen aircraft that has proven in carrying real life weapons loads would be the F-22 and F-35. F-22 has been deployed in combat and F-35 testing of internal weapons is well documented.
34dd00704c8e7193d76321070d7247c7

F35 internal bays
150517-F-YP434-008.JPG

F22 open Internal bays.

yf-23weapsbay.jpg
YF23 singular weapons bay.
here we see the bay open
yf238.jpg
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
They abandoned the f-22/Su-47 style bay because the Su-57's intake position does not allow for it. Sure they could have designed a fighter similar to the F-22 in layout and structure and decided against it for whatever reason. But it's illogical to assume that those reasons were to improve the fighter to another level. They never demonstrated the ability to build an F-22 level fighter and Su-47 was not selected for various reasons. It makes no sense to say that because the bay layout is done in Su-47 therefore they could easily have gone with that option for Su-57. The compromises involved are mysterious to us but i'm not the one making conclusions. The size and fit conclusion I made was based off known width of R-77 and a fair estimate of bay width. I have doubts two can R77s can fit. 3 is impossible.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Everyone can believe what they want. I recall Russians and Indians displaying so much confidence in their equipment only to have the truth revealed slowly but surely. I don't see how this even matters. If you think it can hold 6 missiles, so what. The truth is not available to any of us and probably won't ever be knowing how Russia is like. The fake news army is strong.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
They abandoned the f-22/Su-47 style bay because the Su-57's intake position does not allow for it.
Yet their choice of intake also is of interest. and also hearkens back to the YF23 as both use the same geometry more or less and the same flaw in there stealth.
main-qimg-40909c6afb60ac43fd820bb9deb3c7f9

See the Turbine. That's a big radar return. The Intake was designed for conventional Super sonic flight over stealth. J20, F22 and F35 all use a intake design that keeps the Engine from being exposed like this specifically to keep it from Radar. YF23 also had this issue.
Although there is a FOD screen in the SU57 It doesn't seem like the engine is shielded from radar.
The size and fit conclusion I made was based off known width of R-77 and a fair estimate of bay width. I have doubts two can R77s can fit. 3 is impossible.
IT seems to make up for this by having 4 bays 2 larger 2 defensive. Generally though I Expect that the Russians and Chinese will be introducing clipped fin Air to Air missiles like we see on the Newer AMRAAM and Meteor models.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Yet their choice of intake also is of interest. and also hearkens back to the YF23 as both use the same geometry more or less and the same flaw in there stealth.
See the Turbine. That's a big radar return. The Intake was designed for conventional Super sonic flight over stealth. J20, F22 and F35 all use a intake design that keeps the Engine from being exposed like this specifically to keep it from Radar. YF23 also had this issue.
Although there is a FOD screen in the SU57 It doesn't seem like the engine is shielded from radar.
.

One for all and I don't know if certain members still not know it or deliberately ignore this since they do not want to accept it:
The T50's intake geometry is different and it has another solution added (a blocker - which was not installed in the very first prototypes) in comparison to the F-22/-35, J-20, FC-31 and so on.

Also the YF-23 did NOT have this flaw, it was in fact even more stealthy than the YF-22.

So in the end I'm also not a greatest fan of the T50, but we should not argue with wrong arguments.
 
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