Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Maybe it does have its own shelter and this was just parked temporarily. But then again, it's unlikely this fighter has the weather sensitive stealth coating like J-20, F-22, and F-35. Also Russian methods are different. They demand their military equipment to be very rugged and most of them are designed to deal with this sort of treatment.

The Stealth coatings on Raptor and Lightning are both designed to be sustainable in exposed conditions, Neither is supposed to be a hanger Queen.
I can't comment on J20's though. but for the 2 US fighters they are supposed to be suitable for operation in all possible environments under a degree of abuse.

Where the Russians tend to show more extremes though is the condition of there Runways. Russian planes are designed to survive FOD rich environments that the US DOD would never allow to exist.

 

[siegecrossbow]

From where do we know this?

I don't think I've ever seen a picture or video of the Su-57 carrying the luneberg lens.

 

[Deino]

I don't think I've ever seen a picture or video of the Su-57 carrying the luneberg lens.

Exactly ... therefore my question.

 

[Tirdent]

If the Su-57 retains dedicated active internal ECM (i.e. unlike the F-22 and F-35, which could only use the main radar in electronic attack mode [front aspect only and narrow-band] or towed decoys [can't drag those along for an entire flight]) it is possible that there is a signal repeater mode for RCS augmentation. Would require a pretty wide band jammer though.

Which would beg the question if the J-20 has active ECM, actually?

 

[ougoah]

If the Su-57 retains dedicated active internal ECM (i.e. unlike the F-22 and F-35, which could only use the main radar in electronic attack mode [front aspect only and narrow-band] or towed decoys [can't drag those along for an entire flight]) it is possible that there is a signal repeater mode for RCS augmentation. Would require a pretty wide band jammer though.

Which would beg the question if the J-20 has active ECM, actually?

Why does it beg the question if the J-20 has active ECM? The J-20 has nothing to do with this discussion. I get that some people just love comparing things but let's leave the fruitless J-20 speculation out.

 

[Dizasta1]

Not two, but four Su-57s deployed in Syria. Aircraft will undergo testing of radars, electronic counter measure systems, communication systems. Deployed along side the Su-57s are modernized A-50Us Command & Control AWACS.

RuAF deploys Fifth Generation Fighters in Syria

New details have emerged on the deployment of Russia’s most-advanced fighter jets to Syria. The state-of-the-art Su-57s are in the region to test their electronic warfare and radar capabilities, an insider has said.

Last week, the Russian Defense Ministry reportedly moved four Su-57s, which have been built for trials, to Khmeimim Airbase in Syria. The deployment was seemingly confirmed by Israeli satellite images and footage taken from the ground, but neither the Russian military nor the producer of the advanced warplane would comment on the move.

The aircraft have been sent to Syria to test their capabilities in a semi-combat environment, the Russian business daily Kommersant

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, citing insider sources. The trial will initially focus on electronic warfare and radar capabilities of the 5th-generation fighter jet, rather than its weapon systems, the report said. A decision on the Syrian trial was taken after the MAKS 2017 airshow near Moscow in July, the source revealed.

The advanced fighter jets were deployed to Syria less than two weeks after US forces attacked and devastated a group of pro-government forces, which included some Russian citizens. Moscow insisted that none of the Russians hurt in the incident were part of the country’s military force in Syria.

In addition to the Su-57s, Russia also deployed four advanced Su-36s fighter jets last week, and an A-50U airborne early warning and control plane.

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[Tirdent]

Why does it beg the question if the J-20 has active ECM? The J-20 has nothing to do with this discussion. I get that some people just love comparing things but let's leave the fruitless J-20 speculation out.

Because it apparently needs a Luneburg lens to comply with ATC radar visibility requirements in controlled airspace. It's an innocent question which I was hoping somebody might know more about and I'm happy to continue the discussion in the J-20 thread. It just occurred to me while thinking about what compels the use of Luneburg lenses in the F-117, F-22 and F-35 (lack of all-aspect wide band jammers on board as a means to provide active RCS augmentation without a passive reflector) and why that might be different in the Su-57.

I realize this is strictly speaking the wrong place to ask, but why this touchy reaction?

 

[Hyperwarp]

Because it apparently needs a Luneburg lens to comply with ATC radar visibility requirements in controlled airspace. It's an innocent question which I was hoping somebody might know more about and I'm happy to continue the discussion in the J-20 thread. It just occurred to me while thinking about what compels the use of Luneburg lenses in the F-117, F-22 and F-35 (lack of all-aspect wide band jammers on board as a means to provide active RCS augmentation without a passive reflector) and why that might be different in the Su-57.

I realize this is strictly speaking the wrong place to ask, but why this touchy reaction?

Ignore the touchiness. Only thing us outsiders know about the J-20 is what the officially sanctioned mainland leakers want us to know. So the J-20 may very well be more like the F-117, F-22 and F-35 when it come to the need for a Luneburg lens.

Now on topic, what are the equivalent systems in the Su-57 to the AN/ALR-94 or AN/ASQ-239? And why would Russian risk using the N036 systems in Syria? US, NATO, Israeli, etc, snoopers would have a field day.

 

[ougoah]

Because it apparently needs a Luneburg lens to comply with ATC radar visibility requirements in controlled airspace. It's an innocent question which I was hoping somebody might know more about and I'm happy to continue the discussion in the J-20 thread. It just occurred to me while thinking about what compels the use of Luneburg lenses in the F-117, F-22 and F-35 (lack of all-aspect wide band jammers on board as a means to provide active RCS augmentation without a passive reflector) and why that might be different in the Su-57.

I realize this is strictly speaking the wrong place to ask, but why this touchy reaction?

Touchiness is relative. Maybe you misinterpreted my attempt to make clear how inappropriate it is to involve J-20 into this thread, and on a topic that will not yield meaningful discussion due to the complete absolute lack of details.

We don't actually know whether Su-57 flew in with luneburg lens. At least I haven't been keeping up to date with this. And even if it did or did not, it doesn't mean that much. If you're suggesting that Su-57 does not need them because they have some ECM ability to "augment RCS", wouldn't that reveal details about those abilities? Why wouldn't the Russians prefer to keep that under wraps and even fly them in with dummy luneburg lens to throw off keen observers from unfriendly nations?

Snoopers having a field day may be what the Russians are trying to do with Su-57. There are F-35 and F-22s operating around the area. Why not test passive sensors while switching off everything that can give away Su-57 details? BTW I wonder what the NATO designation for Su-57 is/will be.

 

[Tirdent]

Ignore the touchiness. Only thing us outsiders know about the J-20 is what the officially sanctioned mainland leakers want us to know. So the J-20 may very well be more like the F-117, F-22 and F-35 when it come to the need for a Luneburg lens.

Now on topic, what are the equivalent systems in the Su-57 to the AN/ALR-94 or AN/ASQ-239? And why would Russian risk using the N036 systems in Syria? US, NATO, Israeli, etc, snoopers would have a field day.

Thanks!

The Su-57 equivalent to those systems is code-named Himalaya. As for the reason for this deployment - beats me, I'm as baffled as anybody.

Touchiness is relative. Maybe you misinterpreted my attempt to make clear how inappropriate it is to involve J-20 into this thread, and on a topic that will not yield meaningful discussion due to the complete absolute lack of details.

Well, how am I to know there really are no details known to outsiders if not by asking

It was a long shot, but you never know, and a simple statement that the facts are lacking would have sufficed to make the point.

We don't actually know whether Su-57 flew in with luneburg lens. At least I haven't been keeping up to date with this. And even if it did or did not, it doesn't mean that much. If you're suggesting that Su-57 does not need them because they have some ECM ability to "augment RCS", wouldn't that reveal details about those abilities? Why wouldn't the Russians prefer to keep that under wraps and even fly them in with dummy luneburg lens to throw off keen observers from unfriendly nations?

As Deino correctly noted, no photos of the aircraft with a Luneburg lens have ever surfaced, including the airframes now "operationally" deployed to Syria. Which begs the question of whether RCS is high enough not to require this (and is that because of inherent issues or because these are WIP prototypes not fitted with the full suite of treatments because they are intended to test other aspects?) or if a different solution is available. This in turn would help answer the question of how close to operational capability these two airframes really are.

Active RCS augmentation wouldn't really reveal much useful information about the ECM suite. Pretty much only that it does includes active jammers, is DRFM-based (capable of near-instantaneous re-transmission of received signals) and the wide band width. Russia has been known to possess DRFM technology for a long time, so among these, only the band width has genuine potential for raising eye brows and without more detailed knowledge of the techniques employed in actual countermeasures (rather than repeater) mode that fact by itself is of very limited use to an adversary.

Snoopers having a field day may be what the Russians are trying to do with Su-57. There are F-35 and F-22s operating around the area. Why not test passive sensors while switching off everything that can give away Su-57 details? BTW I wonder what the NATO designation for Su-57 is/will be.

They have a dedicated and highly capable ELINT platform in the theatre in the Tu-214R. As good as the ECM systems on 5th generation fighters are, they're not going to be THAT good. Once the signal parameters are known, there's no reason to fly to Syria for such testing - just replicate them in a lab at home.