Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

b787

Captain
So Deino, can you post any links relating to the T-50 structural issues, I ran upon some one day, and have been unable to track them down since?? as I understand it O1 is unairworthy, and 02? was flying with 01 tail????, anyway if you have some links I would love to understand in more depth what has transpired, just because I am fascinated by these structural issues?
An accident with an advanced Russian T-50 fifth-generation fighter jet, which briefly caught on fire while landing near Moscow, will not affect the schedule of planes’ test runs, Sukhoi company said Tuesday.
MOSCOW, June 10 (RIA Novosti) — An accident with an advanced Russian T-50 fifth-generation fighter jet, which briefly caught on fire while landing near Moscow, will not affect the schedule of planes’ test runs, Sukhoi company said Tuesday.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Sukhoi has played down the impact on its T-50/PAK-FA programme of a fire that damaged one of the five flight test aircraft while on the ground at Zhukovsky air base near Moscow on 10 June.

The company says smoke was observed coming from the fighter’s starboard engine air intake during landing, and a fire broke out shortly afterwards.

However, the blaze was “quickly extinguished”, says Sukhoi, and the aircraft will now be repaired.“This incident will not affect the timing of the T-50 test programme,” it adds.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
The report says they have completed the preliminary design for the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). By preliminary, the wording would suggest to me that it is subject to a final design. I am not familiar with Indian/Russian development path and inter governmental legal framework and so I would appreciate if you can explain the significance of this report in light of the history of this program to-date :

The Intergovernmental Agreement (IGA) was signed in Oct 2007. This basically allows bypassing MoD procurement rules. A General Contract was then signed in Dec 2008 which covers general principles of cooperation, such as work share, cost sharing and export sale arrangements. A Preliminary Contract was initiated in Dec 2010 and negotiations lasted until June 2013 and covers FGDFA basic configuration, systems and equipment selection. This is subject to the final R & D contract which essentially beds down actual design and development but to-date is yet to be inked.

Wouldn't the Preliminary contract negotiations that lasted 2 1/2 years be the basis and outcome of at least a preliminary design? How does this preliminary design fit into the scheme of things? It just seems on the surface to be another continuum towards an elusive final development contract.

The preliminary design is the blueprint. The final design contract is the engineering phase where they will build prototypes and flight test it. The second contract is yet to be signed, this month or this quarter as far as the rumor mill goes. Most likely not this month because Obama is coming over. The blueprint is what they mean by draft project. Requirements have changed many times since 2010, so they should have incorporated all the changes. I'm pretty sure most of them had to do with the avionics and the two-seat requirement of course.

Basically, it means the configuration of the aircraft has been finalized, single-seat and two-seat. What's left is how much all of this will cost, and who will design and test what aspect, even this should be wrapped up soon.

The FGFA doesn't bypass MoD procurement process. According to it, if there is no equivalent available, or if the need is too important, then the forces can ask for a direct govt contract. It was the same with C-17, C-130J and the P-8I, where the equivalents were still being developed, IL-476/A400M etc. However Chinook and Apache had equivalents and had to go through tenders. The A330 had to go through a tender even though the competing aircraft was inferior. However while the diesel electric subs will see a tender, the Nerpa contract didn't because there were no equivalents available. The Apache deal had some issues because the Mi-28 was found to be deficient in 20 parameters out of hundreds, wasn't shortlisted, and led to a single vendor situation, I don't know how the MoD dealt with the issue, but we know the result. The T-90 was procured based on immediate operational needs. It is the same with smaller projects too, like the T-90's APFSDS ammunition which was a single vendor situation because CBI had blacklisted the Israeli competitor over corruption charges.

FGFA doesn't have an equivalent available, so it won't see a tender process. It comes in the category of JVs now.
 

Brumby

Major
The preliminary design is the blueprint. The final design contract is the engineering phase where they will build prototypes and flight test it. The second contract is yet to be signed, this month or this quarter as far as the rumor mill goes. Most likely not this month because Obama is coming over. The blueprint is what they mean by draft project. Requirements have changed many times since 2010, so they should have incorporated all the changes. I'm pretty sure most of them had to do with the avionics and the two-seat requirement of course.

Basically, it means the configuration of the aircraft has been finalized, single-seat and two-seat. What's left is how much all of this will cost, and who will design and test what aspect, even this should be wrapped up soon.

In other words, the Preliminary contract negotiations (blueprint) which started in Dec 2010 is still ongoing. Until a final contract is inked, which means a final design is locked in, the recent report is just another step towards a final design.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
We all know that the Russian industry is right now in a difficult situation and similar the T50's future: With one prototype lost, a mayor redesign of critical structures necessary and as such resulting of the stage II prototypes it is currently far from certain when the T50 will enter service and even more in what numbers ... all statements given so far years before are IMO in limbo and have to be taken with a lot of salt and that goes alos for the twin-seater.

Deino

No prototypes have been lost, one engine exploded, there is no need for redesign of critical structures . Engines are still troublesome, but I'm willing to take the bet they would resolve that to filed first series with AL-41F1 in time. What could potentially delay the project is lack of internally carried weapons as yet (RVV-SD and RVV-MD )
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
No prototypes have been lost, one engine exploded, there is no need for redesign of critical structures . Engines are still troublesome, but I'm willing to take the bet they would resolve that to filed first series with AL-41F1 in time. What could potentially delay the project is lack of internally carried weapons as yet (RVV-SD and RVV-MD )

No. 055 is de facto a write-off ! Even if the first comments after the accident were immediately calling "it will be repaired" even in the latest Russian reports no-one claims this any longer. Anyway it is not a problem in itself - such things just happen, look at the YF-22, the Gripen, ... - but it should also be not a problem to admit.

Regarding these structural issues - I still need to look for the sources (mostly from respected members at the Secret Projects-Forum) these were indeed not related to this accident, but already known after 051 & 052 for 053. Apparently several things were also changed internally and these are also evident by the modifications done from 051 & 052 to 053 & 054 and even more to 055. Finally for 056-1 it seems as if the engine area is now surrounded by composites, instead of metal.

[quote author=flanker]
Nah, don't think so. "Incremental" birds are the modified -1, -2 and factory -4, -5. All those have the changes that are seen on the modified T-50-0 and T-50-7.
Basically it is something like this;
Testing of T-50-0 and the T-50-1 MAKS 2011 showed the weak points of the construction. T-50-0 got modified to fight those weak points and so did -1 and -2. -3 got built prior to all the changes being settled and besides it didn't need them as it is mostly radar bird not manevrability test plane.
-4 and -5 were built in time to get for those changes to be settled and implemented during the production. All those changes were stop gaps for time being with 6-2 and -7 being the true modified frames.
That is the rough timeline i think.
[/quote]
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Just look at the many external additions the reinforce the tail's structure:

T50-3 + AAMs - 3mod.jpg

apparently lots of things has changed internally and is also evident by the modifications done to -1/-2 and -5) The engine area is now surrounded by composites, but that is it.
 

b787

Captain
No prototypes have been lost, one engine exploded, there is no need for redesign of critical structures . Engines are still troublesome, but I'm willing to take the bet they would resolve that to filed first series with AL-41F1 in time. What could potentially delay the project is lack of internally carried weapons as yet (RVV-SD and RVV-MD )
aircraft locator A-100 "Premier" / Photo: militaryrussia.ru

Specialists of the State Flight Test Center in Russia's Defense Ministry Akhtubinsk Astrakhan region in 2015 will hold the test aircraft airborne warning and control A-100 "Prime," said the spokesman for the Defense Ministry Air Force Colonel Igor Klimov.

"In 2015, the planned trials, the most important objects are the PAK FA aircraft, the MiG-29 K / KUB for the Russian Navy, the MiG-35, IL-112, Tu-142MRM, Il-22M, Il-114R, A-100, Tu-214R, Ka-60 and Mi-28nm and models of weapons, "- said I.Klimov.

A-100 "Prime" - AEW and control based on the Il-76MD-90A with PS-90A-76. Antenna complex will be built on the basis of an antenna with an active phased array. Deliveries of the Russian Air Force is scheduled to begin in 2016. November 21, 2014 Beriev received the first aircraft Il-76MD-90A conversion in AWACS aircraft of type A-100.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
I found a popular article in Russian entitled "Five Secrets of T-50"
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

you may just watch the video inside :) but if there's some interest (indicated by a Like or a Private Message for example), I could translate ..
... and you guys gave me five Likes :) so I thought I should translate ... which I'm not good at ... and I'm not good in airplanes ... I did it anyway :) (I skipped "too popular" parts like a reference to Star Wars etc., and tried to make it as brief as possible, since you probably know everything what's inside -- I added several links and my comments). Feel free to tell me what you think (especially if I messed up :)
Five Secrets of T-50
The T-50 (ПАК ФА) will start to be delivered during the next year (which would be 2016).
1. Stealth
70% of the hull is made out of composite materials.
The RCS is 0.5 m^2.
The geometry of the airframe and wings enables high-angle attacks -- leading to the supermaneuverability of T-50.
2. Rotating Nozzles
2. of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
engines make possible for example turning of the aircraft on the spot;
- can be changed from round to flat (to hide the turbine, but at the expense of loosing five to seven percents of the thrust);
New engines expected in 2020, with the thrust increased by 25 to 30%.
3. Smart Hull-Coating
- there're six radars spread over it;
In front to the canopy, there's a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and behind the canopy: the IR sensor to allow the pilot to "look behind".
The Electronic Warfare Suite "Himalaya" helps to hide the airplane from the enemy radars and at the same time enables to see stealth airplanes; its parts are also spread over the hull.
(I have no idea what that system is, I found (dated April 24, 2014):
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

saying its production by
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

has begun.)
The article then quotes somebody from industry: "We don't produce separate parts of the electronics, but segments of an airplane with electronic devices incorporated into these segments."
4. Cool Mind
On board there're two multi-processor computers with 1Gb interconnection.
The electronic intelligence system fuses the data collected from various sources.
T-50 can fight alone, but also within the "unified battlefield" concept, where each machine becomes the eyes, ears and the striking power of the military force; can track up to 60 targets, engage simultaneously up to 16 of them.
Navigation systems which can be employed: GLONASS or GPS or both or none (INS).
Pilot gets the information from three multi-functional displays.
The windshield-mounted display, helmet-mounted display, and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(which uses female
voice) are available.
5. Long Hands
T-50 can fight enemy's airplanes at any distance as it can use long-, mid-, and short-range AA missiles.
The long-ranged
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
holds the world record by hitting a target at 304 km. (really?)
The mid-ranged is
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(the author actually uses the wiki article here :) so I move on)
The short-ranged AAM should be the К-30
(
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
-- I didn't find its description in English; the link
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

says it'll be ready for T-50 in 2016).
The article conludes with examples of other missiles which can T-50 use:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

- P-50 anti-radiation missile (I didn't find any link describing that one)
 
Last edited:

thunderchief

Senior Member
No. 055 is de facto a write-off ! Even if the first comments after the accident were immediately calling "it will be repaired" even in the latest Russian reports no-one claims this any longer. Anyway it is not a problem in itself - such things just happen, look at the YF-22, the Gripen, ... - but it should also be not a problem to admit.

As far as I know, Russian bloggers claimed it was repaired an back in action already in September last year. Of course, this needs to be confirmed by independent sources, but so far there is no indication there was a significant delay in program ( EW suite tested, T-50-6-1 delivered for ground tests ...)
 

b787

Captain
Sukhoi's message over the incident with the T-50 aircraft




Moscow, June 10. Today after the regular test flight of the T-50 aircraft at the airfield of the M.M.Gromov Flight Research Institute in Zhukovsky near Moscow, while the plane was landing, a smoke above the right air intake was observed, then a local fire broke out. The fire was quickly extinguished. The plane is to be repaired. There were no injuries. The Sukhoi Design Bureau set up a commission that will investigate the causes of the accident. This incident will not affect the timing of the T-50 test program.


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
As far as I know, Russian bloggers claimed it was repaired an back in action already in September last year. Of course, this needs to be confirmed by independent sources, but so far there is no indication there was a significant delay in program ( EW suite tested, T-50-6-1 delivered for ground tests ...)

Sorry ! The fact alone that there was not another prototype after 055's mishap is a proof that it is delayed; by the way from what I know it is still not repaired and even more it won't ever´.
I really do not want to start a T50 vs. J-20 contest, but especially in mind of what Russian sources always tell ... and what then happens the T50 program is already heavily delayed.

Deino
 
Top