Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Deino]

 

[Jeff Head]

View attachment 31221

Beautiful paint scheme n the right. I like t.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

So to Clarify your Opinion that F22 is Inferior to Pak-Fa you post a propaganda vid that is subject on Comparing F35 to Pak fa? It's not a bad video alot more serious and critical then most.
Speaking of your video I love this at 1:46 seconds In regards to Criticizer of the F35 The Russian Expert Says

"For the Most, These Kicks were Unjustified, And Basically They were Formed by Far From Specialists in This area"

He's saying That allot of the Claims of Inferiority or Problems with the F35 Are Bogus and the product of People who have no Idea what they are talking about! That is a Dig all around including at RT.
@ 2:09 He says that F35 is the Third Stealth this is wrong It's the 4th production US Stealth The second fighter as both B2 and F117 were Bombers. And one of Dozens of Stealth platforms the US developed.
@ 2:30 seconds He lauds the F16 as the fighter that set the standards for light military fighters and that F35 is likely to repeat this.
@4:50 He brings out the Conspiracy theory of a lock down code that would magically turn the plane off. This is sometimes thrown around especially after early on the Iranian F14's seemed troubled after the revolution... Of course in that case every one using that claim forgets that the Iranian revolution cut the Iranian Air force off from the Suppliers of Spare parts and maintenance just as the F14's were Arriving meaning no one on the ground could keep them operating. And that cuts both ways.
@ 16 minutes after a long rant on the J20 they start on the F22, and star off on the price which was the product of numbers built. Ironically the Number of Raptors built 179 and the number of Lightning 2 built at this moment is almost a 1 to 1 for the Number of PakFa the Russians intend to build.
@~20: He states the Life of the F35 at about 40 years and then starts into the T50 which it seems has a aimed life cycle of 50 years. these are the norms for both sides when it comes to fighters.
@22:40 He rambles about transports but inadvertently makes a point sometimes you need the big top end machine like the F22 well most of the time you need a low end work horse like F35.
@23:50 he Says It has more "actual load" He says Pakfa is a little smaller then SU27 but bigger then F35. For a second I thought he meant It was a replacement for Mig 29... What he means I think is stealth load. F35 sacrifices internal carry and has larger previsions for external carry vs say F22. on the other side of that though is the numbers game vs precision. In WW2 to hit a single German factory the Allies deployed dozens of heavy bombers flying in formation dropping hundreds of bombs that flattened everything for miles around the target. by the time of the first gulf war a single target could be hit with a single precision bomb. As the US and NATO have operated in the last decade more and more the weapons employed are precision or multi mission and more and more of the near future concept weapons are aiming smaller. SDB for example would be easily packed in by the Dozen on a F35 in it's bays and yet would be pin point accurate and lethal.
The Russian weapons we have seen employed in syria however are mostly unguided so they feel they need the numbers and masses for misses. hence his claim of a edge over F35. by American thinking if it needs the mass effect then it's already going to negate stealth so carry it outside.
@24:15 he points out Russian weapons are heavier and so are Russian Avionics yet he says just as effective. ergo The Craft needs the extra lift to counter the weight and looses degrees of performance to try to match.
@ 28:20 He mentions restart of Mig 31 some have been lobbying yet he also points out the biggest flaw of the Mig 31. For 50 tons of Bird you get 4 tons of boom.
@ 30 minutes he starts on the Mig 29, And He actually makes a reasonable point of it's flaws. It' was intended to equal the F16, A light weight lower cost sibling to the Flanker. But the Fulcrum was designed to be the Flankers competition. It costs almost the same has the Same degree of maintenance issues.. He almost seems like he's about to call for a Lightnin-ski I suppose a
"molniya" a Russian light fighter to match the jobs of the F35.
@33 minutes he starts more or less making excuses about the engines
@38:54 he mentions the Cuda missile or miniature self-defence munition air to air missile concept Which aims for a missile a Third the size of a AMRAAM that could be used to intercept enemy air to air missiles or kill the enemy fighter. and by there small size could be packed in larger numbers and would be a Game changer.
@42 minutes I think he summarizes the Pakfa program very critically. IT HAS TO SUCCEED!! There is no Alternative If it fails It's all over. this is the Russian Make or Break if they fail they are going to Fail big and the whole or Russian Aviation will be taken to task. If they succeed then they can move from that point on to the next projects.

Now then to your personal points

Well things are not that complex, first you have to do a visual inspection of both aircraft.

In aerodynamics PAKFA is superior, that is a given, the aircraft is a flat flying wing with podded engines semi-buried in the fuselage.
The podded arrangement allows for the engines being farther apart of each other from the longitudinal axis allowing smaller vertical fins because the engines with thrust vectoring reduce the area and the axis distance works as a longer lever arm.
The LEVCON it has works more efficiently that the tiny puny LEX on F-22.

PAKFA also has variable geometry intakes, these allow for higher Max speed.
Its nozzles are round reducing thrust losses given by the flat nozzle on F-22 .

So if you ask me in speed and aerodynamics PAKFA has the upper hand.

Now on stealth, here you have to consider radar range, types of radar and number of radars plus the IRST, yes the PAKFA has 3 radars with the radome on the nose housing a radar said to have a range of 400km and 2 radars more on the wing leading edge and fuselage side of its forebody.

So in my opinion the idea F-22 has the edge because its superior shape is not true, specially when PAKFA uses lots of composite on the fuselage.

So pretty much i can say PAKFA uses the tactic of better radar to detect the supposedly better shape of F-22 at BVR and at WVR the PAKFA uses IRST and Helmet mounted sight with better aerodynamics to give for a better dogfighter

In my opinion PAKFA is a really good aircraft

Avionics and radar performance its difficult to judge, but in both aircraft it is hard to know who is better in that area.

In terms of Aerodynamics, The F22 gets Extra lift from it's fuselage via a lifting body design aspects
F22's Intakes may be fixed and Serpentine but the power of the engines is not limited by that F22 is able to perform all it's maneuvers with it's intakes with little to no loss in power. and the Fixed Serpentine design means that it's stealthier producing a lower radar return. and as Displayed F22 is a very very nimble aircraft more then able to match any Russian 4th and 4.5 gen in Aerodynamic maneuver.
Say in Pakfa is better in Areodynamics kinda Falls Flat if your dealing with two craft with the kinds of Sophisticated Electronics and super high performance numbers we are discussing. I mean Raptor is already at the Edge of Human performance in terms of G loads, Pushing harder and the pilot can't keep up.

The Russians did install 3 radars true but is that because they felt It was better or because they were worried that a single Radar couldn't keep up? The Reason Russian Aircraft have traditionally sported 2 radars is as they were concerned about Performance aspects of there Electronics warfare capacities. They have long lagged in Radar tech and there main line radars are passive electronically scanned arrays vs the Active electronically scanned arrays found in main line US fighters. the AESA's give far more powerful scanning and details vs the PESA. Now Yes you will now jump up and down pointing to the Russians Latest AESA radars but they are what gen 2 models?

The Russians have an Installed IRST sure but they have kept that on all there Aircraft and IRST is a close range System not long range. It's a fall back system to catch Thermal signatures all ready in IR missile range of 40 KM give or take. So I hardly count an IRST as a selling point and a program for F22 has been targeted to add a secondary function of a IRST like ability to the AN/AAR-56 Missile Launch Detector.

 

[Jeff Head]

So to Clarify your Opinion that F22 is Inferior to Pak-Fa you post a propaganda vid that is subject on Comparing F35 to Pak fa? It's not a bad video alot more serious and critical then most.

Speaking of your video I love this at 1:46 seconds In regards to Criticizer of the F35 The Russian Expert Says
He's saying That allot of the Claims of Inferiority or Problems with the F35 Are Bogus and the product of People who have no Idea what they are talking about! That is a Dig all around including at RT.

@ 2:09 He says that F35 is the Third Stealth this is wrong It's the 4th production US Stealth The second fighter as both B2 and F117 were Bombers. And one of Dozens of Stealth platforms the US developed.

@ 2:30 seconds He lauds the F16 as the fighter that set the standards for light military fighters and that F35 is likely to repeat this.

@4:50 He brings out the Conspiracy theory of a lock down code that would magically turn the plane off. This is sometimes thrown around especially after early on the Iranian F14's seemed troubled after the revolution... Of course in that case every one using that claim forgets that the Iranian revolution cut the Iranian Air force off from the Suppliers of Spare parts and maintenance just as the F14's were Arriving meaning no one on the ground could keep them operating. And that cuts both ways.

@ 16 minutes after a long rant on the J20 they start on the F22, and star off on the price which was the product of numbers built. Ironically the Number of Raptors built 179 and the number of Lightning 2 built at this moment is almost a 1 to 1 for the Number of PakFa the Russians intend to build.

@~20: He states the Life of the F35 at about 40 years and then starts into the T50 which it seems has a aimed life cycle of 50 years. these are the norms for both sides when it comes to fighters.

@22:40 He rambles about transports but inadvertently makes a point sometimes you need the big top end machine like the F22 well most of the time you need a low end work horse like F35.

@23:50 he Says It has more "actual load" He says Pakfa is a little smaller then SU27 but bigger then F35. For a second I thought he meant It was a replacement for Mig 29... What he means I think is stealth load. F35 sacrifices internal carry and has larger previsions for external carry vs say F22. on the other side of that though is the numbers game vs precision. In WW2 to hit a single German factory the Allies deployed dozens of heavy bombers flying in formation dropping hundreds of bombs that flattened everything for miles around the target. by the time of the first gulf war a single target could be hit with a single precision bomb. As the US and NATO have operated in the last decade more and more the weapons employed are precision or multi mission and more and more of the near future concept weapons are aiming smaller. SDB for example would be easily packed in by the Dozen on a F35 in it's bays and yet would be pin point accurate and lethal.

The Russian weapons we have seen employed in syria however are mostly unguided so they feel they need the numbers and masses for misses. hence his claim of a edge over F35. by American thinking if it needs the mass effect then it's already going to negate stealth so carry it outside.

@24:15 he points out Russian weapons are heavier and so are Russian Avionics yet he says just as effective. ergo The Craft needs the extra lift to counter the weight and looses degrees of performance to try to match.

@ 28:20 He mentions restart of Mig 31 some have been lobbying yet he also points out the biggest flaw of the Mig 31. For 50 tons of Bird you get 4 tons of boom.

@ 30 minutes he starts on the Mig 29, And He actually makes a reasonable point of it's flaws. It' was intended to equal the F16, A light weight lower cost sibling to the Flanker. But the Fulcrum was designed to be the Flankers competition. It costs almost the same has the Same degree of maintenance issues.. He almost seems like he's about to call for a Lightnin-ski I suppose a
"molniya" a Russian light fighter to match the jobs of the F35.

@33 minutes he starts more or less making excuses about the engines

@38:54 he mentions the Cuda missile or miniature self-defence munition air to air missile concept Which aims for a missile a Third the size of a AMRAAM that could be used to intercept enemy air to air missiles or kill the enemy fighter. and by there small size could be packed in larger numbers and would be a Game changer.

@42 minutes I think he summarizes the Pakfa program very critically. IT HAS TO SUCCEED!! There is no Alternative If it fails It's all over. this is the Russian Make or Break if they fail they are going to Fail big and the whole or Russian Aviation will be taken to task. If they succeed then they can move from that point on to the next projects.

Now then to your personal points

In terms of Aerodynamics, The F22 gets Extra lift from it's fuselage via a lifting body design aspects
F22's Intakes may be fixed and Serpentine but the power of the engines is not limited by that F22 is able to perform all it's maneuvers with it's intakes with little to no loss in power. and the Fixed Serpentine design means that it's stealthier producing a lower radar return. and as Displayed F22 is a very very nimble aircraft more then able to match any Russian 4th and 4.5 gen in Aerodynamic maneuver.

Say in Pakfa is better in Areodynamics kinda Falls Flat if your dealing with two craft with the kinds of Sophisticated Electronics and super high performance numbers we are discussing. I mean Raptor is already at the Edge of Human performance in terms of G loads, Pushing harder and the pilot can't keep up.

The Russians did install 3 radars true but is that because they felt It was better or because they were worried that a single Radar couldn't keep up? The Reason Russian Aircraft have traditionally sported 2 radars is as they were concerned about Performance aspects of there Electronics warfare capacities. They have long lagged in Radar tech and there main line radars are passive electronically scanned arrays vs the Active electronically scanned arrays found in main line US fighters. the AESA's give far more powerful scanning and details vs the PESA. Now Yes you will now jump up and down pointing to the Russians Latest AESA radars but they are what gen 2 models?

The Russians have an Installed IRST sure but they have kept that on all there Aircraft and IRST is a close range System not long range. It's a fall back system to catch Thermal signatures all ready in IR missile range of 40 KM give or take. So I hardly count an IRST as a selling point and a program for F22 has been targeted to add a secondary function of a IRST like ability to the AN/AAR-56 Missile Launch Detector.

Well said TE...every bit.

 

[b787]

So to Clarify your Opinion that F22 is Inferior to Pak-Fa you post a propaganda vid that is subject on Comparing F35 to Pak fa? It's not a bad video alot more serious and critical then most.
Speaking of your video I love this at 1:46 seconds In regards to Criticizer of the F35 The Russian Expert Says
He's saying That allot of the Claims of Inferiority or Problems with the F35 Are Bogus and the product of People who have no Idea what they are talking about! That is a Dig all around including at RT.
@ 2:09 He says that F35 is the Third Stealth this is wrong It's the 4th production US Stealth The second fighter as both B2 and F117 were Bombers. And one of Dozens of Stealth platforms the US developed.
@ 2:30 seconds He lauds the F16 as the fighter that set the standards for light military fighters and that F35 is likely to repeat this.
@4:50 He brings out the Conspiracy theory of a lock down code that would magically turn the plane off. This is sometimes thrown around especially after early on the Iranian F14's seemed troubled after the revolution... Of course in that case every one using that claim forgets that the Iranian revolution cut the Iranian Air force off from the Suppliers of Spare parts and maintenance just as the F14's were Arriving meaning no one on the ground could keep them operating. And that cuts both ways.
@ 16 minutes after a long rant on the J20 they start on the F22, and star off on the price which was the product of numbers built. Ironically the Number of Raptors built 179 and the number of Lightning 2 built at this moment is almost a 1 to 1 for the Number of PakFa the Russians intend to build.
@~20: He states the Life of the F35 at about 40 years and then starts into the T50 which it seems has a aimed life cycle of 50 years. these are the norms for both sides when it comes to fighters.
@22:40 He rambles about transports but inadvertently makes a point sometimes you need the big top end machine like the F22 well most of the time you need a low end work horse like F35.
@23:50 he Says It has more "actual load" He says Pakfa is a little smaller then SU27 but bigger then F35. For a second I thought he meant It was a replacement for Mig 29... What he means I think is stealth load. F35 sacrifices internal carry and has larger previsions for external carry vs say F22. on the other side of that though is the numbers game vs precision. In WW2 to hit a single German factory the Allies deployed dozens of heavy bombers flying in formation dropping hundreds of bombs that flattened everything for miles around the target. by the time of the first gulf war a single target could be hit with a single precision bomb. As the US and NATO have operated in the last decade more and more the weapons employed are precision or multi mission and more and more of the near future concept weapons are aiming smaller. SDB for example would be easily packed in by the Dozen on a F35 in it's bays and yet would be pin point accurate and lethal.
The Russian weapons we have seen employed in syria however are mostly unguided so they feel they need the numbers and masses for misses. hence his claim of a edge over F35. by American thinking if it needs the mass effect then it's already going to negate stealth so carry it outside.
@24:15 he points out Russian weapons are heavier and so are Russian Avionics yet he says just as effective. ergo The Craft needs the extra lift to counter the weight and looses degrees of performance to try to match.
@ 28:20 He mentions restart of Mig 31 some have been lobbying yet he also points out the biggest flaw of the Mig 31. For 50 tons of Bird you get 4 tons of boom.
@ 30 minutes he starts on the Mig 29, And He actually makes a reasonable point of it's flaws. It' was intended to equal the F16, A light weight lower cost sibling to the Flanker. But the Fulcrum was designed to be the Flankers competition. It costs almost the same has the Same degree of maintenance issues.. He almost seems like he's about to call for a Lightnin-ski I suppose a
"molniya" a Russian light fighter to match the jobs of the F35.
@33 minutes he starts more or less making excuses about the engines
@38:54 he mentions the Cuda missile or miniature self-defence munition air to air missile concept Which aims for a missile a Third the size of a AMRAAM that could be used to intercept enemy air to air missiles or kill the enemy fighter. and by there small size could be packed in larger numbers and would be a Game changer.
@42 minutes I think he summarizes the Pakfa program very critically. IT HAS TO SUCCEED!! There is no Alternative If it fails It's all over. this is the Russian Make or Break if they fail they are going to Fail big and the whole or Russian Aviation will be taken to task. If they succeed then they can move from that point on to the next projects.

Now then to your personal points

In terms of Aerodynamics, The F22 gets Extra lift from it's fuselage via a lifting body design aspects
F22's Intakes may be fixed and Serpentine but the power of the engines is not limited by that F22 is able to perform all it's maneuvers with it's intakes with little to no loss in power. and the Fixed Serpentine design means that it's stealthier producing a lower radar return. and as Displayed F22 is a very very nimble aircraft more then able to match any Russian 4th and 4.5 gen in Aerodynamic maneuver.
Say in Pakfa is better in Areodynamics kinda Falls Flat if your dealing with two craft with the kinds of Sophisticated Electronics and super high performance numbers we are discussing. I mean Raptor is already at the Edge of Human performance in terms of G loads, Pushing harder and the pilot can't keep up.

The Russians did install 3 radars true but is that because they felt It was better or because they were worried that a single Radar couldn't keep up? The Reason Russian Aircraft have traditionally sported 2 radars is as they were concerned about Performance aspects of there Electronics warfare capacities. They have long lagged in Radar tech and there main line radars are passive electronically scanned arrays vs the Active electronically scanned arrays found in main line US fighters. the AESA's give far more powerful scanning and details vs the PESA. Now Yes you will now jump up and down pointing to the Russians Latest AESA radars but they are what gen 2 models?

The Russians have an Installed IRST sure but they have kept that on all there Aircraft and IRST is a close range System not long range. It's a fall back system to catch Thermal signatures all ready in IR missile range of 40 KM give or take. So I hardly count an IRST as a selling point and a program for F22 has been targeted to add a secondary function of a IRST like ability to the AN/AAR-56 Missile Launch Detector.

Tell me what is your nationality? Russian? i guess not, do you think you, Jeff Head or air force brat are Russians? do you think i expect you to have a objective point of view?
It is a waste of time, even i can see with the likes you received, tell me how many Russians are in this thread posting?

I will tell you simply you lack objectivity and ganging with those of your same nationality or cultural bloc what i will win?

Nothing i do not expect from you too much and convience you is a waste of time for me PAKFA is the best in aerodynamics and it is, I do not want to continue arguing no point, keep you F-22 pride it is really boring chating with people who has nationalistic glasses and can not see beyond their national pride

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

B787, You falling into a argument based on... " Well Your Just saying that because Your American"
And that's not an Argument That's dismissal.
I made a few points.
You said That PAKfa has a Good Areo package, It does. but does looking Sexy mean the end all be all. If It's Avionics and Weapons are heavier that's going slow it down.
You say It's Got Variable Geometry intakes, Thats fine F15 has those, Su27 has those, F14 had those I point out that those trade off Radar reflection for more Air and more air feeding engines that can't keep up with out it.
It's a Combat Aircraft So If it's Radar and detection systems are not on the same level then it's all Window dressing.

 

[b787]

B787, You falling into a argument based on... " Well Your Just saying that because Your American"
And that's not an Argument That's dismissal.
I made a few points.
You said That PAKfa has a Good Areo package, It does. but does looking Sexy mean the end all be all. If It's Avionics and Weapons are heavier that's going slow it down.
You say It's Got Variable Geometry intakes, Thats fine F15 has those, Su27 has those, F14 had those I point out that those trade off Radar reflection for more Air and more air feeding engines that can't keep up with out it.
It's a Combat Aircraft So If it's Radar and detection systems are not on the same level then it's all Window dressing.

Nationality and politics plays a lot in the opinion of people here.
I have already told you my opinion, but i will specify my view.
The arms race is a dance that each side makes a system that makes obsolete a system of the previous generation.

F-100 made obsolete MiG-15, MiG-21 made F-100 obsolete, but F-4 surpassed MiG-21, MiG-23 made F-4 obsolete but F-16 made obsolete MiG-23, MiG-29 made obsolete F-16, but F-22 made obsolete MiG-29, and now PAKFA has made obsolete F-22.

those are the dynamics of the arms race, of course things are not cut out a simple as i have said.
With some avionics improvements the F-4 keep some parity with MiG-23 and MiG-21, the F-15 also with better avionics managed to down early MiG-29 versions.

Sometimes generations are just a classification only, i bet with newer avionics the F-22 can rest parity with PAKFA and as with the case of MiG-29 and F-15 even keep it at bay despite better Kinematics in the same way the F-15 managed to beat the more agile and better dogfighter the MiG-29 was.
The PAKFA was designed thinking in how to beat the F-22.

The TVC nozzles were Chosen to be position with higher lever arm and the result is PAKFA has smaller vertical fins, all moving tails, the LEX on F-22 is quiet sharp so it generates a very powerful vortex but it does not control it, PAKFA does control its vortex.

the aerodynamics of the LEVCON is far much more thought and complex than the LEX on F-22.

The Russian analyst said some trues about MiG-29 and MiG-31 but you are portraying them as if the Russian aircraft were failures.

The MiG-29 for example is smaller than the F-18 and bigger than the F-16 was it a failure?
It depends, for the Russian perspective it was because Russian in the 1990s could not afford a jet that costed 24 millions and the Su-27 40 millions, the Su-27 was the ideal fighter because it has longer range and carried 6 BVR AA-10s, versus 2 carried by the MiG-29, so Russia could not afford an F-18A type aircraft, which by the way is limited too in range.

MiG-31 compared to SR-71 was armed and mass produced, Sr-71 was larger and not a fighter,

Compared to the F-14, the Tomcat although more agile, had more primitive radar.

So many things depends what advantages and disadvantages the aircraft offer and F-22 has disadvantages and same F-35, which by the way is more a political system and just a black hole of money and will suffer the same fate of F-105 and F-4

 

[SouthernSky]

And here's where the mine's better than yours falls over on the internet.

AKA an appendage comparison where I come from.

Opinions based on open source are one thing, let's all prey we never find out for real.

 

[Deino]

Another update ... : via

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

THE INDUSTRY REPORTED A NEW ENGINE READY FOR FIGHTER AIRCRAFT PAK-FA

Ready for the second stage engine fighter T-50 (PAK FA). This was reported by TASS director general of Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant Alexander Pekarsh.
"The engine of the second stage is ready to work. Tests are going according to plan ", - said Pekarsh.
Currently the T-50 aircraft passing the test, flying at an intermediate engine AL-41F1 ( "product 117"), established in the framework of the ROC "Demon" and similar in design to the engine Su-35S.
However, serial deliveries of the T-50 must begin with a new engine of the second stage, which was called in the open, "article 30" sources. Compared with the AL-41F1, the engine should be increased thrust (up to 17,5-19,5 tons), increased fuel efficiency and reduced lifecycle costs.
Earlier, in November 2015, the deputy head of the United Engine Corporation Victor Belousov announced that the first flight of the T-50 with the new engine will be held not earlier than 2018. In late 2014 the first flight of a period prescribed for 2017.
Fighter T-50, developed under the program PAK FA (Sukhoi PAK FA), first flew in January 2010, the public was presented at the air show MAKS-2011. In December 2015 it was reported that in the next two years, industry and the military will focus on checking the combat capabilities of the machine.

 

[b787]

September 6, 2016, AEX.RU - The first stage of testing fifth-generation fighter T-50 is scheduled for completion in 2017, the head of the United Aircraft Corporation Yuri Slusar. This TASS.

"T-50 program is implemented in accordance with the schedule, in 2017 we expect to complete the first phase of testing, hiring and Availability installation series. With the Ministry of Defence, we discuss the 12 cars that will be in the series set ... This year we will make all the planes that are in the contract for development work we have implemented, all 12 cars will take part in the trial, "- he said on the TV channel" Russia 24 ".

Slusar recalled that the interest in this fighter shows India.

Fifth-generation fighter T-50 (Sukhoi PAK FA, the PAK FA) - a single strike aircraft, composite materials are widely used in construction. In June, the Chief of the videoconferencing Viktor Bondarev said that the T-50 will be supplied to the Russian air units in 2017.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!