Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Deino]

PS: ... even more why again posting some stuff from 2014 ????

 

[b787]

You still don't see it, don't You ??

They must say all these things since they are a state-owned sales and marketing company (... at least they act like that) and they want to sell this bird. Have You ever seen a LM, Dassault or €Fighter sales-prospect ??? Did You ever read something negative from them about their own product.

But You surely take is for granted since it is "official" !
Deino

I am talking about the subjectivity of supporters and fans of F-22 and PAKFA, both use Lockheed Martin and Sukhoi propaganda, or VVS or USAF propaganda, no one is better, everything depends in each person`s subjectivity

 

[b787]

PS: ... even more why again posting some stuff from 2014 ????

why to prove the Russians do not say the PAKFA is inferior to F-22 go to Official and Forums in Russian and hardly you will find people who say the F-22 is superior to PAKFA.

In English sources and forums there is a preference to claim F-22 is superior, nationality matters, is not like you find objectivity everywhere, but to the contrary subjectivity is king

 

[Air Force Brat]

why to prove the Russians do not say the PAKFA is inferior to F-22 go to Official and Forums in Russian and hardly you will find people who say the F-22 is superior to PAKFA.

In English sources and forums there is a preference to claim F-22 is superior, nationality matters, is not like you find objectivity everywhere, but to the contrary subjectivity is king

To continue to insist that faithful, honest posters are wrong because the Russians put out misinformation, is insulting B787. It is not true, and it unfairly casts doubt on those who are in fact very well informed and accurate in their assessments. The fact is that PAK-FA is at least a decade, likely two behind on development and refinement.

LockMart and USAF have made the F-35 and even the F-22 available to partners in the case of the F-35, and customers, the F-22 has even had several squadron members from foreign militaries. In contrast the Indian partners in PAK-FA/FGFA have NOT been allowed NEAR IT.

so peddle your soap somewhere else, it won't fly here, and I am the Air Force Brat, and I am a pilot. I do happen to understand the science of aerodynamics and powerplants, its not about opinions, its about hardware, and the software that operates the FCS.

Your examples from the 30s, 40s, and 50s of the last century are irrelevant, irrelevant because every body fought aircraft the same way, with the same two Mark I eyeballs, and the same "seat of the pants" , sure airfoils were different, and the Mig-15 was powered by a Russian versions of the Rolls Royce Nene that somehow against reason and good sense were sold to the Russians, and they "copied", just like they bolt for bolt copied the B-17 and B-29.

Yes the Mig was a fine airplane, and initially it did a fine job against allied fighters, until folks got off their butt, and designed the F-86, which put things back to black?? but that was in the last century, and that completely ignores the amazing capabilities that 5th gens bring to the fight, even old "Chuckle Yeager" ignores those amazing advancements that enable us to bring a superior airplane to the fight and win!, which has always been our objective to begin with.

 

[b787]

To continue to insist that faithful, honest posters are wrong because the Russians put out misinformation, is insulting B787. It is not true, and it unfairly casts doubt on those who are in fact very well informed and accurate in their assessments. The fact is that PAK-FA is at least a decade, likely two behind on development and refinement.

.

If you go to Russian speaking forums they are not going to share all your views, nationality matters, go to an English speaking forum and talk about F-22 and a great majority will agree with you. Go to a Russian speaking forum, they will not.

Go to an Spanish speaking forum and you will find thee opinions are devided, if you go to a South american one, you will find many people will say PAKFA is better.

So always nationality matter, it is part of any forum, so to be honest at the end of the day, the best you can do is simply accept other people`s opinions and do not argue, in this case i will not do it any more, there is no point there is subjectivity and every one is allowed to have it

 

[Hyperwarp]

***
So always nationality matter, it is part of any forum, so to be honest at the end of the day, the best you can do is simply accept other people`s opinions and do not argue, in this case i will not do it any more, there is no point there is subjectivity and every one is allowed to have it

Not at all! A person (or persons) does not need to accept or respect another's opinion or idea at all. One only needs to be respectful to the person(s) expressing their view by not suppressing, defaming or personally attacking the persons(s) expressing their view. You don't attack persons, you attack ideas.

One may choose not to argue but that in no way means one accepts that person(s) view.

 

[Air Force Brat]

If you go to Russian speaking forums they are not going to share all your views, nationality matters, go to an English speaking forum and talk about F-22 and a great majority will agree with you. Go to a Russian speaking forum, they will not.

Go to an Spanish speaking forum and you will find thee opinions are devided, if you go to a South american one, you will find many people will say PAKFA is better.

So always nationality matter, it is part of any forum, so to be honest at the end of the day, the best you can do is simply accept other people`s opinions and do not argue, in this case i will not do it any more, there is no point there is subjectivity and every one is allowed to have it

Of course we all have opinions, and forums are notorious for misinformation and collusion, but NOT this forum, we strive for integrity and honest "assessments", we have good sources, and the big dogs only quote highly reliable sources known for their integrity and getting it right, at the very least they offer a "heads up" when the source is a known question mark when it comes to accuracy!

In all honesty I couldn't care less which way the sea breezes are blowing on a given forum at a given time, but a real world analysis of how things might stack up in the "real world"

 

[bruceb1959]

compare aircraft is always difficult for many reasons, in WWII for example the Japanese aircraft were considered inferior to western types until the advent of the Zero, and the Zero was not even the best aircraft, the Ki-84 Hayate was superb, when well flown and maintained defeated the Hellcat easily.

In Korea practically the MiG-15 was superior to all western jet aircraft except the F-86 and the Sabre was only better in some departments, flown by Russian pilots the MiG-15 in Korea was comparable to the F-86 there are plenty of information regarding this.

Aircraft can be compared if you have both aircraft without flight restrictions, the MiG-21 for exampple was flown that way in the USA and the same the MiG-29 in both the USA and Germany and now other NATO countries like Poland.

The PAKFA has only been flown in Russia, the F-22 only by American pilots, in the world there are not pilots who have flown both.

If you have pilots like Paul Metz and Sergei Bogdan talking and comparing both aircraft and flying each other aircraft, you could say an objective opinion.

The last time it passed that in war was in the Korean war when a MiG-15 flew to South Korean forces and a F-86 was captured by North Korean forces and allies.

It is very hard to have an truthful assessment because in reality all aircraft have weaknesses, even USAF pilots knew tangling against a MiG-29 in close fight was risky, the best was always use BVR weapons, the winning pilot like in all in life is knows he has to know his strengths and weaknesses and know his rival`s weaknesses and strengths.
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This argument viz a vis superiority of one aircraft type over another is moot. You are comparing an aircraft in operational service with one that is still undergoing development. As the PAK-FA is built (in part - and I dont mean this disparagingly) on lessons learned by others, it is logical to assume that it will at least be comparable in may respects to the F22 - as no doubt it is designed and built to be. Whether or not it is better will not be known for several years at least, and probably not definitively unless ( heaven forbid ) they actually meet in combat, or at least engage in joint exercises ( as with Indian SU-30's and F-18/F15's). so is it not just best at this point to agree to disagree?

 

[b787]

This argument viz a vis superiority of one aircraft type over another is moot. You are comparing an aircraft in operational service with one that is still undergoing development. As the PAK-FA is built (in part - and I dont mean this disparagingly) on lessons learned by others, it is logical to assume that it will at least be comparable in may respects to the F22 - as no doubt it is designed and built to be. Whether or not it is better will not be known for several years at least, and probably not definitively unless ( heaven forbid ) they actually meet in combat, or at least engage in joint exercises ( as with Indian SU-30's and F-18/F15's). so is it not just best at this point to agree to disagree?

Well things are not that complex, first you have to do a visual inspection of both aircraft.

In aerodynamics PAKFA is superior, that is a given, the aircraft is a flat flying wing with podded engines semi-buried in the fuselage.
The podded arrangement allows for the engines being farther apart of each other from the longitudinal axis allowing smaller vertical fins because the engines with thrust vectoring reduce the area and the axis distance works as a longer lever arm.
The LEVCON it has works more efficiently that the tiny puny LEX on F-22.

PAKFA also has variable geometry intakes, these allow for higher Max speed.
Its nozzles are round reducing thrust losses given by the flat nozzle on F-22 .

So if you ask me in speed and aerodynamics PAKFA has the upper hand.

Now on stealth, here you have to consider radar range, types of radar and number of radars plus the IRST, yes the PAKFA has 3 radars with the radome on the nose housing a radar said to have a range of 400km and 2 radars more on the wing leading edge and fuselage side of its forebody.

So in my opinion the idea F-22 has the edge because its superior shape is not true, specially when PAKFA uses lots of composite on the fuselage.

So pretty much i can say PAKFA uses the tactic of better radar to detect the supposedly better shape of F-22 at BVR and at WVR the PAKFA uses IRST and Helmet mounted sight with better aerodynamics to give for a better dogfighter

In my opinion PAKFA is a really good aircraft

Avionics and radar performance its difficult to judge, but in both aircraft it is hard to know who is better in that area.

 

[b787]