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Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Anlsvrthng said:
If you simplify the equation to the cost of missiles vs. destroyed targets yes, but if you consider that it is not a simple business excercise against the competitor but part of a bigger military activity then the assets,manpower and inteligence capability that used here missing from other places.
In that case you risk three of the last attack drone , valuable days of the crew and missiles for pointless targets, and during this time hundreds if not thousands of ukrainan troops die, and the capability of the ukrainan military decrease minut by minute.

Means attacking pointless targets decreasing the warfighting capability, and decrease the chance to win.
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So you are saying that it wasn't worth it to destroy 2 Russian Navy patrol boats for the cost of 2 micro missiles and some hours of TB2 flight? Its not like they wasted a lot of time, the targetting was provided to them by NATO and presumably Ukraine had already stationed some TB2 in S.Ukraine

Pardon, but I think what you are writing is copium. Who are you to say that the attack was pointless. I have already said to you that the entire Black Sea Fleet had only 6 such boats. That's 1/3 of that ship type destroyed in a single attack. Mind you, these small patrol boats also contribute in blockading Ukraine.

And what does it matter the cost? Who said that Ukraine should fight Russia with caring as much about costs as Russia? With Western assistance, Ukraine will of course aim to smash Russia with money. If $1 million is not enough, then $100m, $1 billion, then $10 billion. Ukraine practically has almost infinite (Western) money to throw against Russian troops

Finally, if you have further issues with this attack then you can submit your complaint to the NATO High Command where the war is being commanded from. For me, this attack was well worth it, for essentially zero cost.

Now let's stop discussing the Ukrainian war. If it was "worth" it or not, its irrelevant.
The news is this: A (single?) TB2 destroyed/sunk/mission-killed 2 Russian Navy Raptor-class patrol boats. I have already calculated the cost of this operation at about $100k. So, at the cost of selling a luxury car, they basically destroyed 1/3 of that ship type in the Black Sea Fleet. Worth it
 
BoraTas

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
Overbom said:
What would you consider as a good countermeasure? Would a couple of MANPADs for the crew (+ maybe a datalink) be an affordable solution for these kinds of threats. Or simply, just a bigger shipborne gun to be able to reach out in longer ranges

Given that the future is increasingly seem to be filled with more drones, it would be a good idea to have a cheap upgrade for patrol boats to somewhat counter (or at the very least, to not be a sitting duck) these low-tech drones
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The TB-2 flies at 7 km altitude and its glide munitions can reach 14 km. So you need proper area air defense to reach it. Anti-air kamikaze drones seem like the most compact solution. Though the existing ones are too slow for the TB-2. Pantsir and Tor-M2 can barely reach it. China's FM-3000 or Israel's Iron Dome seem like the best solutions. They have good enough kinematics and they are small.
 
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Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
BoraTas said:
The TB-2 flies at 7 km altitude and its glide munitions can reach 14 km. So you need proper area air defense to reach it. Anti-air kamikaze drones seem like the most compact solution. Though the existing ones are too slow for the TB-2. Pantsir and Tor-M2 can barely reach it. China's FM-3000 or Israel's Iron Dome seem like the best solutions. They have good enough kinematics and they are small.
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those things kinda need bigger ships than smol patrol boat tho. Maybe in ballpark of 500-1000 Ton.
 
BoraTas

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
Stealthflanker said:
those things kinda need bigger ships than smol patrol boat tho. Maybe in ballpark of 500-1000 Ton.
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Yes. MALE UCAVs are a huge problem for small vessels. Many small ships, even most corvettes, are basically defenseless against the Bayraktar TB-2. A fleet of TB-2s can continue shooting with impunity until the ship's SHORAD ammo runs out. Air cover or a nearby ship capable of area air defense is a must for small ships in the age of drones.

Fun fact: This 7200 ton German Frigate could be defeated by a fleet of 20 TB-2s with zero losses to the TB-2 fleet. Neither its SeaRAMs nor its 127 mm gun can engage the TB-2 from the TB-2s usual engagement range.
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Gloire_bb

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
BoraTas said:
Fun fact: This 7200 ton German Frigate could be defeated by a fleet of 20 TB-2s with zero losses to the TB-2 fleet. Neither its SeaRAMs nor its 127 mm gun can engage the TB-2 from the TB-2s usual engagement range.
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Only with MAM-Ts. MAM-Ls are well within reach for 127/64... and frankly speaking, it'll require crystal clear weather over sea.
But overall the fact stands, you're right.
 
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Petrolicious88

Senior Member
Registered Member
manqiangrexue said:
Wow that's some really kind excuse-making there for the US.

"So, guys, we're gonna go into another recession again and that's normal; that's ok! We meant to do that! No, Larry, I'm not talking about the one that just passed last year; I'm talking about this year, geeze! Anyway, but if any of you non-democracy guys sees a slight drop in growth, that's evidence that democracy wins and you lose and your country is collapsing and we kicked your ass. Lookin' at you, China! You went 6.5% to 5.8%, so you lost the trade war. We went 3% to -8%, but we win because our recessions are supposed to happen."

Oh, and even by your kindest standards, we saw recessions in the US in 2008, 2020, then 2022. That's a hella fast 60 year period for 3 US recessions, eh? I think a missed a couple dozen birthdays in there... Still really good, no problem, right? Most dynamic and vibrant; China doesn't count cus it's a democracies only contest, right? LOL
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The US went into and got out of 12 recessions since WWII, none of them put it into long term decline - Fact. This time recession is likely in 2023 due to Fed tapering and 20+ years of growth since 2008, and 2020 Covid being an outlier. How is this going to change the long term fundamentals (abundance of natural resources , productive labor force, property protection, IP protection, free competition etc. etc..) of US economy.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Petrolicious88 said:
The US went into and got out of 12 recessions since WWII, none of them put it into long term decline - Fact.
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Has the US ever went into 3 recessions in 14 years? It's not to say that the US economy is now no longer going to grow; but it does mean it's hitting huge, undercarriage-damaging speed bumps, bumps it can't afford to be hitting when it's racing China. Sure, your car broke down and as soon as your tow truck gets here and hauls you to a garage to get your fixed up, you'll be on the road again but where's the other guy when you're in a race?
Petrolicious88 said:
This time recession is likely in 2023 due to Fed tapering and 20+ years of growth since 2008, and 2020 Covid being an outlier.
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Next year, it'll be 20+ years since 2008? You like to exaggerate America's economy a lot, don't you? Pro tip: You can throw around words like "vibrant" and "dynamic" all you want cus they're more meaningful when describing circuses than economies, but it doesn't work quite as well with numbers.
Petrolicious88 said:
How is this going to change the long term fundamentals (abundance of natural resources , productive labor force, property protection, IP protection, free competition etc. etc..) of US economy.
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A lot of things have changed since Trump. America has become divided in unprecedented self-hate; world confidence in the US is shaken, the way the US does trade and the way that's perceived has been warped. Young Americans don't view going to work the same as before COVID; they feel like the government owes them and they should take advantage of that instead of working hard. America no longer looks confident or benevolent. This is because its system cannot handle actual challenge; it works well when it has a huge lead but begins to panic and faulter when truly challenged. The long term fundamentals of America were never going to allow it to stay ahead of China, which is why China caught up so rapidly. And now this new system of panic is causing even further turbulence. Can the US recover in the long term? I'm fairly sure it can. Can it manage to eek out growth in the short term, enough to placate the public (regardless of the truthfulness of the numbers)? Maybe. But in a race with China, China's the racecar that was always going faster than the US, and it prudently slows down around corners to keep moving. America's the racecar that was always slower but in a panic tries to go nuts while turning, and it's caused it to spill over/hit things a lot recently. It's going to have its pit crew fix things up and bring it back onto the track but it's losing laps to China each time it happens and each time a country like Russia distracts it, it happens again. Then it gets more desperate and makes economic challenges to China hoping to turn things, and once again, China stays in control at the curb while the US ends up nose first in the haystack cursing.
 
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