Russian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

I don't think anyone doubts that Russia can make military equipment more cost effective than western countries.

Whats surprising is the fact this 5th generation jet is purportedly cheaper than previous generation Russian jets.

ougoah said:

something more than AL-41/117 but less than Izd.30 apparently

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Izd30 is only for SU57 as far as i know. I wonder if Russia can make checkmate fighter themselves without joint venture.

stannislas said:

nothing, back in 20 years ago cars sold in china are cheap as well... if Hyundai think lower the price can get them more profit, they will do it, it has nothing to do with the russian auto manufacture efficiency. This is very simple pricing strategy...

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unless you have proof that they are using lower quality material we have to go by what is on there website. Hyundai is using high tech features in vehicles that exceed most of the world for vehicles at that price point. even imported cars are cheaper in Russia
$127K loaded price in Russia. $177K starting price in China for Japanese sports car.

stannislas said:

ok, let's see, not fully made in US means not prestigious industry...ok... nice logic, if there is any... I guess that means silicon vally is pretty much all sunset by now, we could kiss goodbye to iphone, google and windows tomorrow then?

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so you can make display panels, batteries and processors for every device with consistent quality without Europe production engineering?. Just to give you some idea. Helium is needed for manufacturing those items but how to create Helium plant without Europe?

stannislas said:

again, check on which country you are refering too, China... so glad to know you are able to provide china some foreign subcontractor to outsource their aerospace industry...

ok, again, funny logic here,

assuming russian Aerospace effiency > russian Auto industry effiency,
also russian Auto industry effiency < rest of world Auto industry effiency

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it is either final product or raw material. there is no intermediate goods.

stannislas said:

so you conclusion is: russian Aerospace effiency > rest of world Aerospace effiency

really? uhhh???

Click to expand...

I only said Russia can make planes without Europe that can be used for civilian operations.. they may not be the most fuel efficient but its minor issue. Russian alone has technical capacity and already implementing projects to make them competitive.
practically year Russia sends fire fighting planes to Turkey and Greece but those are civilian versions. but this time they sent it from Navy. it can scoop more than water.

The Be-200 amphibious aircraft of the naval aviation of the Russian Navy was sent to assist Turkey in extinguishing fires​

pmc said:

unless you have proof that they are using lower quality material we have to go by what is on there website. Hyundai is using high tech features in vehicles that exceed most of the world for vehicles at that price point. even imported cars are cheaper in Russia
$127K loaded price in Russia. $177K starting price in China for Japanese sports car.

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Click to expand...

yes, and you must heard of some unfortunately thing called "tax", please check out how much does Chinese government fine on those imported vehicals... Certain brands in China are 50-100% more expensive than they were sold in U.S.

pmc said:

so you can make display panels, batteries and processors for every device with consistent quality without Europe production engineering?. Just to give you some idea. Helium is needed for manufacturing those items but how to create Helium plant without Europe?

Click to expand...

so basically I was questioning your logic on "Aerospace is not prestigious industry in China / US, even Boeing parts and engines are half made in Europe" and your answer was they need "Europe production engineering for device with consistent quality"

...ok...although I don't genrally agree on what your said, but thank you so much for proving my case.....

pmc said:

it is either final product or raw material. there is no intermediate goods.

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you are the only person talks about that...

pmc said:

I only said Russia can make planes without Europe that can be used for civilian operations.. they may not be the most fuel efficient but its minor issue. Russian alone has technical capacity and already implementing projects to make them competitive.
practically year Russia sends fire fighting planes to Turkey and Greece but those are civilian versions. but this time they sent it from Navy. it can scoop more than water.

Click to expand...

no body denies Russia can make planes without Europe, but you were comparing the price of automobile price in different countries to prove Russian can make thing cheaper and more efficeint in aircraft industry, and this narrative is laughable and unlogical.

in fact, no offence, if you have any idea of engineering or any of these two industries, or even just simply google some videow on youtube about car manufacture vs plane manufacture, you won't say anything like that...

pmc said:

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The Be-200 amphibious aircraft of the naval aviation of the Russian Navy was sent to assist Turkey in extinguishing fires​

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yes, so does China's AG-600 amphibious aircraft is completely native.

sheogorath said:

Descendant of Prussian nobility, so their ties to the rest of the inbred europoean nobility is to be expected. Doesn't say anything of the country today geopolitics wise.

Specially when Russians today are deeply aware the West sees them as asiatic mischievous hordes anyway and has done so since 1917.

The chances of them falling into western influence again is close to 0.


All that conjecture is illogical and pointless. Otherwise, you'd be lending credence to the western orientalist vision that the CPC is actually a continuation of the Qing Emperors, somehow.

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Interestingly, tho’, the Russian Navy is celebrating its 325th year. This suggests, strongly, a continuity, in the least, of an Imperial tradition (identity).

The main naval parade in honor of the 325th anniversary of the Russian fleet​

Meanwhile, PLAN celebrates 70 years, connecting its origin to the foundation of the contemporary Chinese state.

james smith esq said:

Interestingly, tho’, the Russian Navy is celebrating its 325th year. This suggests, strongly, a continuity, in the least, of an Imperial tradition (identity).

The main naval parade in honor of the 325th anniversary of the Russian fleet​

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Meanwhile, PLAN celebrates 70 years, connecting its origin to the foundation of the contemporary Chinese state.

PLA Navy 70 Years On​

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Click to expand...

It is almost impossible to trace root of Chinese Navy. "Modern" steam powered Chinese navy started in late Qing dysnaty, the greatest moment of Chinese navy before PRC is in Ming dynasty headed by admiral Chen Ho, then there are navies from many other dynasties back to thousands of years ago.

So it is simply better to celeberate 70 years of PLA Navy instead of 2XXX years of Chinese Navy.

lcloo said:

It is almost impossible to trace root of Chinese Navy. "Modern" steam powered Chinese navy started in late Qing dysnaty, the greatest moment of Chinese navy before PRC is in Ming dynasty headed by admiral Chen Ho, then there are navies from many other dynasties back to thousands of years ago.

So it is simply better to celeberate 70 years of PLA Navy instead of 2XXX years of Chinese Navy.

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First Chinese navies were around as early as the Spring and Autumn period, which were mostly transport ships used during the Wu-Chu and Wu-Yue contentions. The first standing navy didn't occur until the Southern Song Dynasty, which won every naval engagement against the Jurchens and Mongols until the Battle of Yamen, which heralded the end of the dynasty.

Let's get back to topic please.

stannislas said:

yes, and you must heard of some unfortunately thing called "tax", please check out how much does Chinese government fine on those imported vehicals... Certain brands in China are 50-100% more expensive than they were sold in U.S.

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Russians are confident in there manufacturing nor they need money on custom duties. . when you look actual dealer stocks. Lexus SUVs are cheaper in Russia than in US (US does not have centralized VAT so it is not reflected on website). I am bringing expensive vehicles to point out that it need dealer support network. so greater profits per vehicle needed if volume of sells low.

stannislas said:

so basically I was questioning your logic on "Aerospace is not prestigious industry in China / US, even Boeing parts and engines are half made in Europe" and your answer was they need "Europe production engineering for device with consistent quality"

...ok...although I don't genrally agree on what your said, but thank you so much for proving my case.....

Click to expand...

Its good you agree. if you dont find enough talented people in an industry. than most likely resort to imports. and those imports can create political liability. EU will get very tough.

stannislas said:

you are the only person talks about that...

no body denies Russia can make planes without Europe, but you were comparing the price of automobile price in different countries to prove Russian can make thing cheaper and more efficeint in aircraft industry, and this narrative is laughable and unlogical.

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The price came in context of Checkmate fighter. You cannot question Checkmate price unless you study integrated aerospace industry and talented people it attract due to political support.
Russia automobile industry is competitive without this integration. so why question Checkmate price?. Efficiency and centralization is key whether a government or industry.

stannislas said:

in fact, no offence, if you have any idea of engineering or any of these two industries, or even just simply google some videow on youtube about car manufacture vs plane manufacture, you won't say anything like that...

yes, so does China's AG-600 amphibious aircraft is completely native.

Click to expand...

BE-200 first got EASA certificate in 2010. turbo prop not very efficient in climb rates and high altitude performance which is key for fire fighting in hills. I am sure next generation engines will improve BE-200.

pmc said:

Russians are confident in there manufacturing nor they need money on custom duties. . when you look actual dealer stocks. Lexus SUVs are cheaper in Russia than in US (US does not have centralized VAT so it is not reflected on website). I am bringing expensive vehicles to point out that it need dealer support network. so greater profits per vehicle needed if volume of sells low.

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Click to expand...

wait a sec, so you are comparing Chinese and Russian car industry, and get the conclusion of Chinese is not confidence enough on their auto industry?.

.........ok.....

just copy from wiki... List of countries by motor vehicle production, you sure about your statement?

pmc said:

Its good you agree. if you dont find enough talented people in an industry. than most likely resort to imports. and those imports can create political liability. EU will get very tough.

Click to expand...

I have no idea what i am agree on...

pmc said:

The price came in context of Checkmate fighter. You cannot question Checkmate price unless you study integrated aerospace industry and talented people it attract due to political support.
Russia automobile industry is competitive without this integration. so why question Checkmate price?. Efficiency and centralization is key whether a government or industry.

Click to expand...

Ok, this is really funny...

First of all, 30M USD for Checkmate, sure, but airframe only, it has to add another 10M for engine, 10M for electronics, 10M for other training and other supporting and 10M for weapons, and that brings the total price to 60~70M per unit, which make much more sense and less compatible but still attractive.

second, this is not 70s, Russian is not Soviet anymore, they don't stuff for free anymore. and based on how Russian charge Chinese, Indian and other buyers over the past two decades, I hardly saw any "talented people it attract due to political support" (plus I'm not fully understand your english, sorry).
Russian has always put a ridiculously low price tag to lure the customer and charge excess amount on the whole system...

Lastly, I'm not going to argue again on if Russian car industry is competitive enough... because as I repeatly saying, it has nothing to do with the plane industry.
Toyoto is no 1 in the world, yet Mitsubishi is 2nd tier in aircraft building at most. German has BMW, Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW, but where is its plane industry? This two has nothing to do with each other.
You are basically saying if one people is good at math must be good at science, it's possible, but no directly causality

Just face the fact, Checkmate may be the most affordable 5th gen fighter, but there is no way it's going to be operated in a lower price than Russian 4th gen fighter. No matter, how much you dream about it, Sokhio need to sell Checkmate at a reasonable price to make profit, and 30M for whole cycle just insulting on everyone's intelligence and lie in front out our face.

stannislas said:

wait a sec, so you are comparing Chinese and Russian car industry, and get the conclusion of Chinese is not confidence enough on their auto industry?.

.........ok.....

1	Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!	25,225,242
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just copy from wiki... List of countries by motor vehicle production, you sure about your statement?

I have no idea what i am agree on...

Click to expand...

This is 2016 figures of production for Russia. Chinese tax foreign imports to promote its local manufacturing. Russians has imports that are same price as local manufacturing. very little investment can create such high sedan showing strong manufacturing and R&D skills.

stannislas said:

Ok, this is really funny...

First of all, 30M USD for Checkmate, sure, but airframe only, it has to add another 10M for engine, 10M for electronics, 10M for other training and other supporting and 10M for weapons, and that brings the total price to 60~70M per unit, which make much more sense and less compatible but still attractive.

Click to expand...

I havent seen anything that say its airframe only. surely it may not include weapons', maintenance and training. but basically fighter it will be complete.

stannislas said:

second, this is not 70s, Russian is not Soviet anymore, they don't stuff for free anymore. and based on how Russian charge Chinese, Indian and other buyers over the past two decades, I hardly saw any "talented people it attract due to political support" (plus I'm not fully understand your english, sorry).
Russian has always put a ridiculously low price tag to lure the customer and charge excess amount on the whole system...

Click to expand...

Is there any evidence what is inside the agreements about what is included in the price and how long the prices are valid?

stannislas said:

Lastly, I'm not going to argue again on if Russian car industry is competitive enough... because as I repeatly saying, it has nothing to do with the plane industry.
Toyoto is no 1 in the world, yet Mitsubishi is 2nd tier in aircraft building at most. German has BMW, Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW, but where is its plane industry? This two has nothing to do with each other.
You are basically saying if one people is good at math must be good at science, it's possible, but no directly causality

Click to expand...

Toyota is No1 in world because it has global factories and global talent. Mitsubishi dont have these things on same scale in its Aerospace division. so its object failure. Japan cannot succeed without global support. Auto industry is open so it is more easily to know about it. so far there is no evidence that anyone can make Automobiles cheaper (consider tech and engine size) than Russian regardless of production volumes.

stannislas said:

Just face the fact, Checkmate may be the most affordable 5th gen fighter, but there is no way it's going to be operated in a lower price than Russian 4th gen fighter. No matter, how much you dream about it, Sokhio need to sell Checkmate at a reasonable price to make profit, and 30M for whole cycle just insulting on everyone's intelligence and lie in front out our face.

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4G fighters are twin engine. that second engine add cost and complexity. plus factories are now modernized. so they can make aircraft efficiently.
you can look at latest Sukhoi SBJ even with Italian designed interior and 8000km range certified. its price is $50m. its low volume product relative to Airbus.