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Air Force Brat said:

So that was an SU-27 dogfighting an F-16 over "Groom Lake" that's basically "area 51". So yes we do have Flankers, and what is likely occurring is that we are working up tactics for the F-16 to easily defeat the SU-27s, Flankers etc, etc.

So you play out multiple scenarios and come back with an OPs manual and a training regimen. Do this and this and that, but DON'T do this??? Trust me, those guys are both trying to win, and they will come up with a "sure fire" F-16 kills Flanker every time! and a No-No column, if this happens and that happens get the heck out of there??

They are building a "School Curriculum", trust me, those F-16s and drivers are very capable of dispatching Flankers, its just gonna be a little more work. With our aircraft being deployed to Europe, and our friends flying F-16s?? this information will be A+, and those engage and destroy tactics will be winners, that's whats going on at "Groom Lake".

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the Flankers you fly in the US are Soviet jets, Russia already has replaced all those jets with modern versions with TVC nozzles, and Supercruise capable Su-35s , a Modern Su-30SM has improved avionics and TVC nozzles your F-16 can not compete, in fact the Su-35 will pick any F-16 at far far ranges that no F-16 will see it, so in BVR no F-16 can down the Su-35s; at WVR no F-16 will beat Su-35 since the old Soviet fighter you operate already was better than any F-15 and the F-16s had troubles fighting the Eagles, sorry to say this too you but you have watched many topgun movies, Su-35 has made obsolete your F-16s, most of your F-16s do not even have IRST trackers and most advanced F-16s are built for foreign air arms your air force has many cold war relics.

You are forgetting Russians are humans and your pilots are humans too, they also train how to beat your pilots, and those Russian pilots are only inferior in Hollywood movies in real life are really good pilots

FORBIN said:

Two Su-27s were delivered to the U.S. in 1995 from Belarus.

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Two more were bought from Ukraine in 2009 by a private company, Pride Aircraft to be used for aggressor training for U.S. pilots.

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those are Soviet jets, Ukraine has not gotten any new Su-27 variant, Belarus has, but those are not fore sale, these jets are so old their avionics are analogue, no digital or large LCD, further more, modern Russian flankers have improved engines the Al-31F-M1 or 117S, these Flankers do not have phased array radars, so they do not represent the modern Su-27 flanker, basically is like trying to Fly a F-16A versus a F-16C, a modern Su-35 flies closer to an F-22 than a F-16A, as a threat they represent air forces like Angola, a Modern Chinese Su-27 clone or an Algerian one do not fly like that, and they will need an F-22 to simulate the Su-35

b787 said:

the Flankers you fly in the US are Soviet jets, Russia already has replaced all those jets with modern versions with TVC nozzles, and Supercruise capable Su-35s , a Modern Su-30SM has improved avionics and TVC nozzles your F-16 can not compete, in fact the Su-35 will pick any F-16 at far far ranges that no F-16 will see it, so in BVR no F-16 can down the Su-35s; at WVR no F-16 will beat Su-35 since the old Soviet fighter you operate already was better than any F-15 and the F-16s had troubles fighting the Eagles, sorry to say this too you but you have watched many topgun movies, Su-35 has made obsolete your F-16s, most of your F-16s do not even have IRST trackers and most advanced F-16s are built for foreign air arms your air force has many cold war relics.

You are forgetting Russians are humans and your pilots are humans too, they also train how to beat your pilots, and those Russian pilots are only inferior in Hollywood movies in real life are really good pilots

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you should really stop watching the RT channel, stop reading RT.com & Sputnik.com & stop listening to Radio Sputnik.

kwaigonegin said:

This type of scenarios is the best there is.They will poke and prod every inch of the airframe and it's capabilities and like anything will pitch strength against weakness.

In this case they will learn how to force a scenario or conditions where the Vipers etc can use it's best performance envelop against the Flanker's weakest whatever they may be and then develop tactics and based on that advantage.
In other words train viper pilots to best create scenarios that is most favorable to themselves and unfavorable to the Flankers.

Also you can bet they put the absolute best pilot in that Flanker.

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Amen! to that, and if we were flying Flankers, and they were flying F-16s, we would flip the equation. We lose when we pretend we are so awesome nobody will mess with us, we win when we work hard and expect to be challenged, possibly even beaten by a determined adversary, and believe me, the Russians have proven they have stones.

Even if the old Admiral Kuz is a nightmare, they will make it work, but this latest excursion must have been something of an embarrassment, if the Chinese do buy those SU-35s that 2 billion will be spent quickly.

b787 said:

the Flankers you fly in the US are Soviet jets, Russia already has replaced all those jets with modern versions with TVC nozzles, and Supercruise capable Su-35s , a Modern Su-30SM has improved avionics and TVC nozzles your F-16 can not compete, in fact the Su-35 will pick any F-16 at far far ranges that no F-16 will see it, so in BVR no F-16 can down the Su-35s; at WVR no F-16 will beat Su-35 since the old Soviet fighter you operate already was better than any F-15 and the F-16s had troubles fighting the Eagles, sorry to say this too you but you have watched many topgun movies, Su-35 has made obsolete your F-16s, most of your F-16s do not even have IRST trackers and most advanced F-16s are built for foreign air arms your air force has many cold war relics.

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.... Oh joy... First The chances of a shooting war between the US and RF are low even at heightened tensions as it would likely go nuclear if the shooting started. The SU27's are however widely exported to a list of nations many of whom are frankly less than friendly with the US.
Second. The numbers game, The Vast majority of Russian Flankers are SU27 and SU30 not SU35. The fact is more F35 will be... no More F35 at this very moment have been built then SU35 period. by this point around 58 SU35 have been built. the Russian Air force has around 84 SU30 and over 227 SU27. Fact is the numbers of the Vaunted Terminator are not that impressive. just for numbers perspective the USAF has over 950 F16 in service and they have regularly been updated and upgraded

And despite or fear mongering

You are forgetting Russians are humans and your pilots are humans too, they also train how to beat your pilots, and those Russian pilots are only inferior in Hollywood movies in real life are really good pilots

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True although there are No currently Confirmed Russian Aggressor Squadrons in the Soviet Past they operated similar units in Turkmenistan.
Again i point out that chances of a War between the powers is low. but need to train airforce pilots for dog fighting is high. these Flankers are not being flown by nuggets the pilots who fly these american operated Flankers are the cream of the USAF, they are intended to train new pilots and cream other USAF pilots in training. IE it's wargames.

b787 said:

those are Soviet jets, Ukraine has not gotten any new Su-27 variant, Belarus has, but those are not fore sale, these jets are so old their avionics are analogue, no digital or large LCD, further more, modern Russian flankers have improved engines the Al-31F-M1 or 117S, these Flankers do not have phased array radars, so they do not represent the modern Su-27 flanker, basically is like trying to Fly a F-16A versus a F-16C, a modern Su-35 flies closer to an F-22 than a F-16A, as a threat they represent air forces like Angola, a Modern Chinese Su-27 clone or an Algerian one do not fly like that, and they will need an F-22 to simulate the Su-35

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oh for goodness sakes you have no idea what you are ranting about. Again as I have pointed out The numbers are on the SU27's side there are more F22's then SU35s Second these are being used to train the trainer. in WVR dogfights and finally even seemingly inferior aircraft operated by a Pilot trained in appropriate tactics can compensate for differences in Aircraft. Additionally even if they were not upgraded by their previous owners There are a number of off the Shelf international upgrades that may have been applied to the Bird after its american procurement, And Finally there is only conjecture of there Origin. There have been rumors of the USAF operating Mig29 and SU27 types for decades.

FORBIN said:

Su-34 closer !
View attachment 34827

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I really like the SU-34.

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TerraN_EmpirE said:

.... Oh joy... First The chances of a shooting war between the US and RF are low even at heightened tensions as it would likely go nuclear if the shooting started. The SU27's are however widely exported to a list of nations many of whom are frankly less than friendly with the US.
Second. The numbers game, The Vast majority of Russian Flankers are SU27 and SU30 not SU35. The fact is more F35 will be... no More F35 at this very moment have been built then SU35 period. by this point around 58 SU35 have been built. the Russian Air force has around 84 SU30 and over 227 SU27. Fact is the numbers of the Vaunted Terminator are not that impressive. just for numbers perspective the USAF has over 950 F16 in service and they have regularly been updated and upgraded



oh for goodness sakes you have no idea what you are ranting about. Again as I have pointed out The numbers are on the SU27's side there are more F22's then SU35s Second these are being used to train the trainer. in WVR dogfights and finally even seemingly inferior aircraft operated by a Pilot trained in appropriate tactics can compensate for differences in Aircraft. Additionally even if they were not upgraded by their previous owners There are a number of off the Shelf international upgrades that may have been applied to the Bird after its american procurement, And Finally there is only conjecture of there Origin. There have been rumors of the USAF operating Mig29 and SU27 types for decades.

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when did the USAF receive its last F-16? when did the Russian Air force recieve ts last Su-30 or Su-35?

How many F-16s were built in the 1970s, 1980s or even 1990s?
The youngest airframes in the USA are the F-18Es, the F-16s are old
see answers





see the latest were block 50

see F-15



Most F-15s and F-16 are 1980s and mid 1990s airframes, basically as old as the Su-27s built in USSR, so when you say Russia has less fighters it is true but most Su-30s are new built since 2010

Splitting hairs F16's are not a "build it and forget it" kind of thing like a car. The current F16C and D were brought to block 52 spec in post 2003 and The USAF has been planning a final round of upgrades as F35 moves to production. The F15 received a new radar and avionics set in 2007 and Boeing is pushing another set of SLEP

Also you are still muddling with numbers even with upgraded SU30 types the majority still fall in SU27 not SU35.
. additionally in role the F16 is not intended to be a equal to the SU27 rather it's closest is the Mig 29, yet again differences in mindset and concept and Mig 29 has not faired as well.
Bottom line. For Training USAF pilots to simulate adversary role and train other pilots SU27 is fine.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Splitting hairs F16's are not a "build it and forget it" kind of thing like a car. The current F16C and D were brought to block 52 spec in post 2003 and The USAF has been planning a final round of upgrades as F35 moves to production. The F15 received a new radar and avionics set in 2007 and Boeing is pushing another set of SLEP

Also you are still muddling with numbers even with upgraded SU30 types the majority still fall in SU27 not SU35.
. additionally in role the F16 is not intended to be a equal to the SU27 rather it's closest is the Mig 29, yet again differences in mindset and concept and Mig 29 has not faired as well.
Bottom line. For Training USAF pilots to simulate adversary role and train other pilots SU27 is fine.

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avionics fly in airframes, airframes have metal fatigue, if you fly your F-15 simulating dogfighting Su-27s, the Eagles lose feathers, metal cracks, now ca you get it, today`s F-15s are old, same the F-16s, the USAF true has 3 or 4 times more F-16s with equivalent airframes to the MiG-29s and the USAF has as many Eagles as Russia has Flankers but the Su-30s and Su-35s are newer, better and have younger airframes.
Only the F-18E has new airframes.
Here the conversation was the F-16s are dogfighting Su-27s, but those Su-27s are old, their airframes too so it is unlike;y they can represent the Su-35 or Su-30s, they represent the old Su-27s flown in Ukraine, but the Su-3Xs of Russia, no they do not.
Not for nothing the USAF wants the F-35s, but do not lie to yourself, the USAF also flies relics

Again I point out between the Two forces Who is likely to have better paid for maintenance of their craft. The Russians have had budget issues and bleeding resources for decades.
Yes not every bird is brand new but numbers and capability wise a hand full of SU35 is not a threat to the US.

Again I point out that the Ukraine source is not confirmed. We have no history on these fighters or their source. The Maintainers and repair work is also an unknown. In the past the 4477th kept Migs flying with less data on them then we have today. These Flankers would not be flying as often as they are intended here in the US for a special mission, IE familiarization, They would be flying with less payload, only enough to remote simulate weapons fire electronically meaning only a couple of the hard points no wear near war load the russians intend and And if any place in the World could maintain exotic aircraft it's Groom Lake.