Russian Flanker and SU-3X Thread: Videos, Pictures, News, Views

[F-15]

Re: Russian SU-3X Flanker Thread: Videos, Pictures, News, Views

KNAAPO lists it as 18,400 kg

It does not say that; here are both the official pages and brochure for Su-35S

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they never give the empty weight



It says the Su-27 takes off at 23430 kg with 5 tonnes of fuel and almost the same weapons load a Su-35S, here is the reason of your estimate, the SU-35 will do the same at 25300 kg

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thus people think and implied the Su-35 empty weight is heavier, the data does not say so, since Sukhoi says the newer Su-35 carries more fuel almost 2 tonnes more.

your data is not factual, is just a supposition people gave based upon both website pages of Sukhoi

See that the max weigh of Su-27 is 30 tonnes with 9 tonnes of fuel and 4 tonnes of weapons

Su-35 carries 11 tonnes of internal fuel and 8 tonnes of weapons

Now Su-27 is 30-9-4=16 do you see why i do not believe your numbers?

Now see the Su-35 has two extra weapons hardpoints

 

[F-15]

@F-15

It is true that 18000 kg empty weight is not official . We could only speculate how did they get that number. My guess is this : from official catalog normal takeoff weight with 2xR-77 and 2xR-73 is 25300 kg. In Russian doctrine normal takeoff weight is usually calculated with 50% fuel . With maximum fuel at 11500kg, and taking into account weight of the missiles, you would get something like 18-19000 kg empty weight .

As for supercruise, it is not simply T/W as you think. Main problem is to overcome sound barrier without engaging afterburners . Resistance of sound barrier does not depend on the weight of the plane, it depends on front profile of the plane. As we could see, Su-35 and Su-27 have similar front profile and at the same time Su-35 has stronger engines . So, it is entirely possible that even with similar T/W , Su-35 could supercruise and Su-27 could not .

-------------------

And to better understand things about supercruise, simple example : you have one paper plane and similar plane made of steel . They both have same dimensions and shape, only difference is material (and mass of course) . They both accelerate with equal acceleration and hit glass window with same speed (let's say 5m/s ) . What would happen ? Do you understand now ?

I agree, and you are honest, i like that, but if you look at the Su-27 and Su-35 are basically identical with very few changes and the drag is not going to be so different, in my opinion the SU-35 is not that heavy, and i will tell you why.

it is said the Su-27 is 16.5 tonnes, now add 9.4 and 4.2 tonnes of weapons and you get 30 tonnes, that is exactly what the Sukhoi page says, you are thinking the Su-35 is heavier because you think it can not fly with 11 tonnes of fuel internally and 8 tonnes of weapons, that is 19 tonnes okay 34500 kg -19000kg is around 15 tonnes, the 25300 kg can also mean the jet carries more fuel internally only that it does not mean it weighs more

See the official Russian knights website says Su-27 weighs 16300 kg

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Use then Sukhoi`s website and you will find the Su-27 9 and 4 tonnes does indeed give you 16 tonnes so it can carry all its fuel and weapons load not like you are thinking

 

[thunderchief]

About payload : for Su-27, you have to remember it was designed primarily as air dominance fighter and nothing else (kinda like F-15) . So low maximum payload is more of anomaly then a rule, most of hardpoints were certified only for AAMs .

Better comparison would be with Su-30MK2 . Maximum takeoff weight is 34500 kg, while limit is 38000 kg . In reality this means you would not takeoff with maximum fuel and maximum payload at the same time. Instead, you would takeoff with maximum payload and latter refill in the air .

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Now, I don't know what percentage of composites was used on Su-35 , but you have to remember it has more avionics and heavier engines then Su-27 . Therefore, until we get official data, all this talk about empty weight is just internet rumors and speculations .

 

[F-15]

About payload : for Su-27, you have to remember it was designed primarily as air dominance fighter and nothing else (kinda like F-15) . So low maximum payload is more of anomaly then a rule, most of hardpoints were certified only for AAMs .

Better comparison would be with Su-30MK2 . Maximum takeoff weight is 34500 kg, while limit is 38000 kg . In reality this means you would not takeoff with maximum fuel and maximum payload at the same time. Instead, you would takeoff with maximum payload and latter refill in the air .

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Now, I don't know what percentage of composites was used on Su-35 , but you have to remember it has more avionics and heavier engines then Su-27 . Therefore, until we get official data, all this talk about empty weight is just internet rumors and speculations .

Agree, but let me explain you better

Su-27 weighs according to the acrobatic team Russian knights page 16300kg empty, see this is an official page, now the Su-27UB weighs according to the same page 17500 kg due to the tandem seat structure for the second pilot.

Su-35S is not air dominance, but multirole
Here you can see a regular Su-27 combat load
[video=youtube;ZEOK7yW4lPU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEOK7yW4lPU#t=41[/video]

That is a regular combat load

If you see the acrobatic team Russian knights page and see the data by Sukhoi you see that it can carry all its internal fuel and all its combat load, that is true for the Su-27.

Su-35 carries more fuel thus the 25300 kg mean in my opinion it does carry only more fuel.

 

[thunderchief]

Well, you gave yourself an answer : basic Su-27 was air-dominance fighter and you would be hard pressed to find any pictures on them carrying bombs, especially on wing stations.

From Su-30, number of hardpoints was increased and they were strengthened to improve payload . On the other hand, there were no major changes to airframe (fuel tanks were increased) and engines . Therefore Su-30 is unable to takeoff with maximum fuel and payload - not a big deal because many strike fighters share same problem .

 

[F-15]

Well, you gave yourself an answer : basic Su-27 was air-dominance fighter and you would be hard pressed to find any pictures on them carrying bombs, especially on wing stations.

From Su-30, number of hardpoints was increased and they were strengthened to improve payload . On the other hand, there were no major changes to airframe (fuel tanks were increased) and engines . Therefore Su-30 is unable to takeoff with maximum fuel and payload - not a big deal because many strike fighters share same problem .

Su-35 is multirole, all the current Su-3X are multirole

Here is the Su-34 dogfighting a Su-27

[video=youtube;aXrLMN7U5pc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXrLMN7U5pc[/video]

the only main difference in these fighters is the type of multirole fighters they are, Su-34 is a true striker watch the video

 

[F-15]

[video=youtube;5RK-xdCd1ag]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RK-xdCd1ag[/video]

This video is about the SU-34 as a striker

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: Russian SU-3X Flanker Thread: Videos, Pictures, News, Views

Look i do not need a long excuse,

First, I did not give you an "excuse." Second, I am not here to give you what you "need" in any case. I simply stated my reasoning. You can agree with it or not...and that is fine.

It does not say that; here are both the official pages and brochure for Su-35S

Already discussed this...ad nausium. The data from vendor brochures is always going to paint the best light possible.

they never give the empty weight

I know.

your data is not factual, is just a supposition people gave based upon both website pages of Sukhoi

As I suspected...you want to represent your view as the purveyor of factual, accurate data about this. Sorry...but as I have discussed with you, that does not fly. The fact is, there is no factual data available for this particular number right now. And...as I indicated, it is quite possible that we may not know it for sure. Until then, and in its absence, we use sources available, which I have did.

I have indicated shared those numbers are indicated where they come from. You do not agree. Fine. We simply disagree.

However, a word to the wise. You are new here to SD F-15. We have a lot of very talented people on this forum. You would be well served to be a little less absolute and all knowing when conversing with others on these issues.

I have not indicated that your info is either wrong, or not factual...but I have indicated that there are various ways of looking at and asessing data, and that the actual data we do see in many instances, for obvious reasons, is in fact not the true data because that is held closely by the nations operating the aircraft. Therefore, in discussing this, on an open forum, there are going to be differences of opinion. Let's just treat them that way, be courteous to one another, and discuss it without rancor.

That's just my advise to you as a new member on SD. If you want your time here to be enjoyable, long lasting, and mutually instructive and benificial...it is good advise.

Cheers.

 

[Jeff Head]

It is true that 18000 kg empty weight is not official . We could only speculate how did they get that number.

Exactly. I agree 100%. And until we do have such numbers, we have to rely on our own calculations and that of other fairly reputable sources.

My guess is this : from official catalog normal takeoff weight with 2xR-77 and 2xR-73 is 25300 kg. In Russian doctrine normal takeoff weight is usually calculated with 50% fuel . With maximum fuel at 11500kg, and taking into account weight of the missiles, you would get something like 18-19000 kg empty weight .

And I believe that is a very decent analysis. Something similar, to one degree or another, is what others are doing.

Well said.

Folks can look at that type of analysis, and the resulting numbers...and either agree or disagree. I believe it is probably pretty close.

 

[Jura The idiot]

...

Folks can look at that type of analysis, and the resulting numbers...and either agree or disagree. I believe it is probably pretty close.

I have no idea, of course but great pictures here (plus that awesome video F-15 posted

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) ... does anybody have pictures of Su-27/Su-3X armed with X-31A (AS-17 "Krypton") AShM (I think up to four could be carried), I'm kinda interested in that missile (as some of you might remember from 'Syrian Crisis...2013' thread by the way why they're no new posts there?? I just checked the last one is from: 11-11-2013, 10:09 PM