Russian Flanker and SU-3X Thread: Videos, Pictures, News, Views

[aksha]

12 - 0? You must be kidding! If MKI is that good, why would India go for Rafale?

about 12-0 ,
i will say that it is because of the pilots,
in 2007 exercises the typhoon defeated the MKI
one RAF guy even said that no plane in IAF can match the Typhoon.
in 2007 the IAF sent pilots from a squardon that was newly converted to the MKI,

This time they send pilots from a frontline squardon.
one of those guys had the most amount of flying hours in the MKI ,in the IAF,
as you can see from previous articles on this thread.


see this

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and this

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IAF plans to operate about 260 flankers , which i dare say will end up having 300
but too much of anything is not good

HGH MAINTENANCE ,

currently only 54 percent of the fleet is available for lack of spares .

they are aiming to increase availablity to 74%

and apparently engine problems too

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but that will have its costs.

simply put MKI is bought cheap , but it is costly to operate,
especially a fleet of almost 250 Flankers
the air force becomes top heavy.
they are now forced to use the Flanker even as interceptors,
even when it is civilian aircraft broadcasting wrong codes

 

[Jeff Head]

and @thunderchief and @Air Force Brat @b787

Not only did the MKI shoot down two typhoons in a 2 VS 1 wvr DOGFIGHT,
it defeated them 12-0 in dogfights

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As I said in th eother thread. This is simply the INdians crowing about there results.

They indicate that they did not do as well in the large WVR engagements...and nothing was said about any BVR engagements.

In addition, we do not know all of the parameters of the scenario or the ROE.

My guess is that the RAF also has things to crow about and that we will hear about that soon enough.

I will withhold final judgment until I hear both sides.

I know in the past that the Typhoons have performed very well against MKIs, and so my question becomes ... what changed?

My guess is that it is wrapped up in the ROEs of both occasions, and the fact that we have not heard from the RAF yet.

 

[thunderchief]

I know in the past that the Typhoons have performed very well against MKIs, and so my question becomes ... what changed?

Pilots As @aksha said , India now sent more experienced pilots with the type, and they were able to fully utilize Su-30 MKI flight envelope .

 

[Jeff Head]

Pilots As @aksha said , India now sent more experienced pilots with the type, and they were able to fully utilize Su-30 MKI flight envelope .

Yes...that would make a HUGE difference as well.

If the 2007 exercises were against relatively new squadrons of SU-30MKIs without a lot of operational experience...ten years later you are going to see huge improvements.

 

[SinoSoldier]

but would you do that to an air force to whom you are trying to sell 90 fighters particularly when there has been rumours that the MMRCA competition will be held again,(

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)
and when eurofighter (the germans especially) and gripen have been the biggest lobbyists even after the rafale has been chosen.

i am sure , you will not want to show a possible customer that your aircraft is very bad .???
particulary when th customer is having a goodlook at the aircraft
and tell him that aircraft that he already has is not only cheaper but also superior even in BVR????

if you are correct , then the Eurofighter consortium is likely to send those pilots to a firing squad.
because they have not only completely assured that the EF ,will never enter IAF stables.
but also because every future customer is likely to think thrice before evaluating the Typhhon after reading that article.

I would presume that the Royal Air Force values the secrecy of its top-line fighter far more than it does the Eurofighter's marketing appeal. If Eurofighter GmbH was seriously about selling them to the IAF, which I think it is, they would have disclosed key information separately rather than in a friendly exchange between the two air forces. Keep in mind that this exercise was hosted by the RAF, in whose interest it is to maintain silence on what those jets are really capable of, not Eurofighter consortium.

In essense, marketing the Typhoon and keeping its data classified are not mutually exclusive.

 

[aksha]

if you want a neutral article then here goes

every source indicates that the flanker more than held its own against the Typhoon.

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ndian air force pilots (IAF) flying their Su-30MKI Flankers provided stiff opposition for a UK Royal Air Force (RAF) Eurofighter Typhoon squadron during air combat maneuvering exercises just ended in the UK. Senior officers from both the IAF and the RAF were unwilling to discuss details, but AIN understands from informed sources with knowledge of the exercise that, in close combat, the thrust vector control (TVC) on the heavier Flankers more than compensated for the greater thrust-to-weight ratio of the Typhoon.

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and soon the MKI's would be visiting for RED FLAG too

 

[aksha]

and another one , again a neutral source

and see this

this suggests that the Flanker beat the Typhoon in its comfort zone

Srivastav, an Su-30 pilot with more than 2,000 hr. on the type, says the Typhoon enjoyed very high rates of turn but adds, “we have a counter for that.”

The Typhoon is not invincible, certainly not if you have the tactics

“You can only read and brief so much about the Flanker, but it’s not until you are up in the air with them, and against them, that you see what a great aircraft it is,” says Wing Cmdr. Chris Moon

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The last time the Typhoon battled against the Su-30 on home turf was in 2007, during the first U.K.-based Indradhanush exercise. At the time, the Typhoon was still an immature warplane with the RAF, which was then building up experience on the type. The Su-30 crews were primarily working with Panavia Tornado F3s, and the Su-30s were hampered by their inability to use their NIIP N011M Bars radar system.

There were also concerns that the U.S. was using one of its RC-135U Combat Sent electronic-intelligence platforms during the 2007 exercise in a bid to gain information about the radar.

This year, however, the situation was markedly different. Both the Typhoon and Su-30MKI have matured, and Indian crews were able to use their radars. The Indians also made regular use of “super-maneuverability” provided by the Sukhoi’s 3-D thrust vector control (TVC) system.

“There were no restrictions on this exercise; we had full freedom,” says Indian air force Group Capt. Ashu Srivastav, who led the Indian contingent to the U.K.

Pilots from both sides refused to comment directly on comparisons of the two aircraft and which, if any, enjoyed an advantage, although one British pilot describes the two aircraft as being “equally comparable.”

“You can only read and brief so much about the Flanker, but it’s not until you are up in the air with them, and against them, that you see what a great aircraft it is,” says Wing Cmdr. Chris Moon, head of the RAF’s 3 Sqdn., the lead British unit for the exercise.

“These are two of the best dogfighters in the world. . . . One is predominantly a rate [of turn] fighter, and the other is a high-alpha slower-speed fighter,” says Moon, describing the Typhoon and Flanker, respectively.

Srivastav, an Su-30 pilot with more than 2,000 hr. on the type, says the Typhoon enjoyed very high rates of turn but adds, “we have a counter for that.”

One Indian pilot tells Aviation Week that they had used the yaw capability of the TVC to remain inside the tight turn radius of the Typhoon in order to keep the Typhoon within missile launch parameters.

It was agreed before the exercise that they would simulate common ranges for both BVR and WVR missiles, rather than the ranges of the actual missile type used on each aircraft.

as for ROE , if you think that it is decided only by the RAF then you are wrong,
as far as bilateral exercises with India are concerned,
Indian air force officials visit the Host much before the exercise , to plan the itenenery,
they do it together.
never do they favour one forces strenght over the other,
IAF at least will not allow it.
if they want to assure themselves , that within their comfort zone,they are almost unbeatable
then they don not have to send their planes and men so far wasting their money,
when they couldhave done the same at home by facing Mig21's at home itself.


as far as i know , it is the first time the MKI was allowed to use all her fangs and claws
and she handed out a beating.


Wonder if they trained against IAF Mig-29's in order to test their tactics before the exercise. The Mig-29 also enjoys a very high t:w ratio and high turn rates. Probably the only aircraft in IAF inventory that can give the MKI a run for its money. A good stand -in for the Typhoon. MKI vs Mig-29 must be a hell of a dogfight. Only problem being that the Mig will run low on fuel very soon and will have to disengage.

 

[aksha]

HERE comes the RAF's comments
finally

Responding to the Indian claims, the RAF source they were clearly designed for the “domestic audience”. He told The Independent: “There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India, as the headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form.”

The RAF source also stressed that the Typhoons had effectively been fighting “with one arm behind their backs” as they did not make full use of their more advanced weapons systems.
Tony Osborne, the London bureau chief of Aviation Week, also suggested caution when dealing with the Indian claims. “These cricket-style scores claimed by the IAF look impressive but should be treated with caution and certainly not as a realistic gauge of combat capability,” he said.
“We have to view these scores through the haze of pilot bravado, national pride and also some political correctness. Nonetheless, the Su-30MKI is one of the aircraft that the Typhoon was designed to tackle and defeat, and no doubt in the right hands would present a potent challenge. Today [though] the aim would be to engage aircraft like the Su-30MKI from long-range before the two could come together in a dogfight.”

Even the Indian pilot admitted the SU-30s were “less successful” in the longer-range combat exercises.
(HEHE NICE ONE BUT HE ALSO ADMITTED THAT THE FLANKERS HAD AN EDGE OVER THE TYPHOON EVEN THEN)
Aviation experts also pointed to an exercise in 2011 when RAF fighters decimated the ranks of the visiting IAF pilots, prompting the then Air Chief Marshal of the RAF, Stephen Dalton, to comment: “Well, they lost.”

A spokesperson for the RAF said of this summer’s exercises: “Our analysis does not match what has been reported, RAF pilots and the Typhoon performed well throughout the exercise with and against the Indian Air Force. Both [forces] learnt a great deal from the exercise and the RAF look forward to the next opportunity to train alongside the IAF.”

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Pathetic H&D saving exercise. The RAF must learn to take it as well as they give. I don't remember any IAF personnel making excuses for their "supposedly" poor performance in the earlier exercise.


and as my friend Shiv at BRF puts it

OK Now I have a real picture of Indradhanush. This year it was definitely a case of

• information designed for the “domestic audience”.
• there must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India
• Typhoons had effectively been fighting “with one arm behind their backs"

On the other hand, in a previous exercise when RAF fighters decimated the ranks of the visiting IAF pilots, prompting the then Air Chief Marshal of the RAF, Stephen Dalton, to comment: “Well, they lost.” At that time

• There was no Brit audience interested enough so no question of any statements for "domestic audience"
• British pilot recollections were crystal clear unlike the hazy recollections of Indian pilots
• No mention of how many Typhoon arms were tied but the Su-30s were using three or four arms all flailing about

It was the RAF who gave us laws and a sense of justice after all.

I am certain the Typhoon is a great aircraft - but if a British Air Marshal had to say "They lost" last time I am sure the famous British sense of fair play and justice - (remember the Goddess Minerva and her scales and all) should not have any trouble adjusting to a 12-0 kick up the backside no? i mean it wasn't as though Vishnu Som started this. That Air Marshal did back then.

 

[JayBird]

Yeah.. can't have it both way. When reports and "leaked" informations from RAF about them supposedly destroyed the IAF during the previous exercise. No one was complainting about bragging from the UK side.

This year the IAF pilots got the upper hand in the exercise, they should have as much bragging right as the RAF pilots and enjoy the win. If the RAF guys don't like it, do better the next time against the IAF like what the Indian pilots did this year.

Congratulations to IAF for the work well done and enjoy the victory. Until next time..... I'm sure the RAF guys can't wait for the re-match.

 

[SinoSoldier]

HERE comes the RAF's comments
finally

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Pathetic H&D saving exercise. The RAF must learn to take it as well as they give. I don't remember any IAF personnel making excuses for their "supposedly" poor performance in the earlier exercise.


and as my friend Shiv at BRF puts it

Frankly I'm equally circumspect to believe the RAF claims as I am about Indian claims.

Each side will spin it to their audiences' tastes (as expected); unfortunately, raw and unadorned data may never come to meet the public eye.