Russian efforts to sell the Su-57/PAK FA to China

Xsizor said:

True that. But India knows that. Pakistan knows that. Kurds know that. Turks know that. Chinese know that. Except for unfortunate-yet-fortunate US lackeys(vassals) , the rest of the free nations with an iota of intelligence know that and are prepping in their own ways to free themselves. China being a great economic power is the worst thing that can happen to US hegemony. Soon India, Vietnam, Indonesia etc would gain economic power and that would mean less power for the anglosphere and the Nato.

No big offense to pakistan BUT they have absolutely pathetic aeronautical industry/ knowledge & skill base necessary to operate the fighter.

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Even MORE nonsense! Gentlemen, this thread is about Russia attempting to interest China in purchasing/subsidizing a joint venture in the Su-57!

No need to include your skewed logic on US bashing in this thread, so lets get back on topic, and start you own little thread if you must...

Guys ... either You stick on topic or I'll close it.

To include potential sales of F-35 or other wet-dreams are as likely to happen has the Su-57E deal to the PLAAF ... but they are not the thread's question.

Deino

It can be defined in inverse as well.

Russia happy to sell anyone weapons around the world, without the need to join her empire as exchange.

Even the USA bought S-300 from Russia.

So, it is up to China to buy Su-57.

And it is true for China as well.

To buy the Russian aircraft can be a political decision, not because of the needs of the PLAA , but to help/speed up the development of Su-57.

That could put additional strain onto the resources of USA, considering the deficiencies of the Patriot.

It would take few billions of $ to buy say 30 Su-57, and it could force the USA to spend few 100 billions for new radars and SAM systems in Europe/central Asia as well.



The enemy of my enemy is my friend : )

I guess some members don't see the moderators message...

Indoctrinated folks parroting their nation's propaganda about absolute invincibility and established global domination forces me to speak out. Certainly, i think i've to control myself a bit.
Efforts shall be taken from my side regarding this. Objectiveness is discussion is very important.

Coming back to the whole Su-57 sale to china- i must admit that the topic is a bit hard to discuss without geopolitics in consideration ( as geopolitics and balancing acts are significant factors in defence purchases and far outweigh cost and performance parameters for a lot of customer nations). China's primary adversary being US doesn't help much.

Su-57 would have to find a way to atleast limit or remove certain shortcomings like the "unhidden" engines and lack of precision manufacturing very apparent in the images. This forces questions about the level of effort taken for the subsystems installed within and their claimed generation jump. Su-57 has a rather peculiar weapon's bay. There is certainly scope for cramming in some very next gen items in there like hypersonic nuclear cruise missiles. Very attractive for nations like India and China who want to expand/diversify their capabilities.

What if the J-20 is taken further along the precision strike role and a severe need arises for a seperate air-superiority stealth platform ? Wouldn't that mean the Su-57 bus could be boarded by the chinese and end up being a sino-russian project ( with a new fancy name) ? I think it's going to be fruitful if seriously pursued.
Answers shall be given once the J-20 flies with the WS-15. Maybe the WS-15 finally gives it the necessary oomph that it lacked to be formally recognized as an air superiority 5G fighter.

The J-20 would suck at ground strike without amendments to it though. Too small weapons bay (for a striker) and too much focus on flight characteristic. Hilariously cost ineffective.

At most, they can do SEAD against super high value air defenses. But it would be preferable to make a strike 5th for that.

The Su-57 with it’s dubious stealth cannot do what the J-20 could do, so it cannot replace an eventual Chengdu strike 5th gen.

Suppose China buys it, we can narrow it down into two options. Either a small order or a large order.

A small order would only be for the purposes of training, such as the Su-35.

A large order would mean doing something more with the airframe, some sort of co production and technology sharing. Like with the J-11. In that case, a “J” variant of it will appear with upgraded technology fairly soon.

But it is certain that it doesn’t compete with any existing PLA plane.

I honestly don’t understand why people still believe importing the Su-57 would help China in any way. It won’t, either short term or long term.

Note that I am NOT basing my argument on how “invincible” China’s current weapon systems are. No! I am not. For all we know, Chinese systems have many flaws.

30 years ago, China’s science and technology were so much behind everyone else, they needed foreign help to give them a push. At that time, foreign help was not only necessary, but essential.

After learning from the best in the world and acquiring extensive experience themselves, the Chinese are now at a stage where they can and need to figure out their deficiencies themselves. Like a new college graduate, although they still have much to learn, they need to become independent. In fact, as we all know too well, the last piece of puzzle for becoming mature is your ability to solve your own problems. Running to your mommy every time when you have a problem won’t make you mature. Yes, it would be so much easier to ask your mom to take care of it. But it would make you mamma’s boy all your life. If China doesn’t want to become Russia’s little brother for eternity, they need to solve their own problems.

This is as much of a technical problem as a mental problem. Do they automatically think “my Goodness! Trouble! Where is my mommy?” Or they go “OK, a little complication. Let’s roll up our sleeves and figure it out!” You won’t become the king of the world by running to your mommy every time something goes wrong. If the Russians and the Americans managed to figure it all out from scratch (let’s face it. Someone has got to start from the very beginning without any help), we all should have confidence that the Chinese can figure out a few small issues.

As for the potential financial gains from buying the Su-57, I’ve said this before, spending less is still more expensive than not spending at all. They save the money to figure out the problems on their own. They can invest the money in future projects.

At this point, China’s number one goal is to establish a solid foundation for their ultimate goal of becoming number one in the world. A prerequisite of all competent kings is their maturity. Now, it may sound very arrogant when they are “wasting” time and money beating around the bushes in an attempt to solve a problem that already has a solution. However, that’s how you become mature. Part of being a mature person is to know when to have the humility to say “I’m in trouble, please help”, and when to have the confidence to say “I can figure it out on my own!” 30 years ago, the Chinese had the humility to ask for help. Now, the Chinese should have the confidence to go on their own.

Just think about the stupid things we all did when we were young... all the headaches... would we be the same person if our mommies are there to solve all the problems for us? We would still live in our parents’ basement...

China will never buy the Su-57, a plane so inferior, even Indians reject it, and they are thirsty for 5th gen more than any other nation out there.

When even thirsty India rejects your plane, no wonder Russia is begging China to buy it to increase marketing attractiveness.

Phead128 said:

China will never buy the Su-57, a plane so inferior, even Indians reject it, and they are thirsty for 5th gen more than any other nation out there.

When even thirsty India rejects your plane, no wonder Russia is begging China to buy it to increase marketing attractiveness.

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India rejected for many reasons. 1. Lobbying by Americans 2. Monetary committment 3. Russian refusal to share core technology.

China doesn't have any such problems. If China figures out everything then why did China bought Su-35? It has been more than 20 years China failed to produce domestic engine for fighter jet. Chinese inability to produce engine also impact her ally and export customer who are looking for low cost alternatives.

Please find an alternative excuse that China already have a working stealth fighter hence China doesn't need Su-57. J-20 is under powered for the job it tasked with. J-31 is the same with Russia dependency. The most export potential is low cost J-10C which is also restrained by Russian dependency.
This is a positive feedback when are you (FOURTH LARGEST WEAPONS EXPORTER) going to figure out Solutions of these problems?

If offered at reasonable prices, China will buy the Su57, just as it bought the Su35.

If will give them insight into the latest Russian fighter; provide them with a perfect opfor unit for J20s to practice against; as well as given them a LO fighter to use to gauge adversary capabilities without risking them getting actionable intel on J20s.

But enough with all this buying for engines nonsense. Do any of those making that claim have any idea how much work is involved to change engine types on a fighter? Not to mention the fact that China already has the WS15 well in the works.

The WS-10 series of engines has evolved a lot in terms of both production and capability. While there is still a huge gap in terms of product lineup, etc with other powers it is not like the situation hasn't evolved at all over the last decade. The fact that the dual engine aircraft now use WS-10 series engines is proof of that. The WS-10 TVC demonstrator is another.