russian analysis of PLA

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Why did you skip 4.5th generation? Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen

China has J-10, Russia? Not even a 4.5th generation airframe. Russian has stagnant.

Russia's 5th generation fighter's prototype had make its maiden flight... while China's one is still not able to fly.

That is why I have been stressing that Russia might not be economically sound and not militarily as good as what she used to be during the Soviet period, but she still have the technical know-how, infra-structure and industrial bases to make good something.

Perhaps now... people could stop seeing Russia in too negetive a light and start giving her some deserved respect.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
Why did you skip 4.5th generation? Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen

China has J-10, Russia? Not even a 4.5th generation airframe. Russian has stagnant.

J-10? IIRC, The J-10 is considered by the PRC as a 3rd Generation (4th generation as we know it) and NOT a 3.5th Generation (4.5th gen) plane. The J-10B should qualify as a 3.5th generation (4.5th gen) plane. But it is still in a prototype stage. The Russians flew their own 4.5th generation plane the Su-35BM about 2 years back. The RuAF has ordered 48 of these planes. The plane is also available for export. It has some impressive specs.

And today Russian flew their prototype 5th generation plane PAK-FA (Sukhoi T-50). Check the SDF World Armed Forces - http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/russian-fifth-generation-fighter-4897.html

The reason Russian slumped is because the horror days they had when the Soviet Union collapsed. Not that they lack the capability. but that should now start to change
 

victtodd

New Member
Assume the PAK-FA turns out to be a success, how many aircrafts do you expect Russia airforce to afford with a budget less than 1/10 of US airforce? The cost per unit would be prohibitively high unless it can manage to sell a decent number of planes abroad.

Without economic might, any dream of restoring Soviet´s glory would be built on a very shaky foundation.
 
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Spike

Banned Idiot
Assume the PAK-FA turns out to be a success, how many aircrafts do you expect Russia airforce to afford with a budget less than 1/10 of US airforce? The cost per unit would be prohibitively high unless it can manage to sell a decent number of planes abroad.

Without economic mighty, any dream of restoring Soviet´s glory would be built on a very shaky foundation.
Costs for the PAK-FA project should be helped by Indian financing and purchases of the 2-seat version; and anyways, if oil/gas prices go through the roof again, the Russians will be swimming in cash.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Costs for the PAK-FA project should be helped by Indian financing and purchases of the 2-seat version; and anyways, if oil/gas prices go through the roof again, the Russians will be swimming in cash.
The development of the PAK FA was helped by Indian financing, but do we expect the Russian Air force to use Indian cash to buy fighters for itself?

I even say good luck to the Russian purchase of their Su-35s.... I do wonder how they will finance their purchases for it.

What victtodd said was true - you can have the technological base but without kaching, then you're pretty much at a dead end.
If we assume the PAK FA to be a fraction of the F-22's cost, and take account that the RuAF's budget is a fraction of the USAF's... Then it's highly likely that the PAK FA won't be getting into high numbers too fast. I doubt it'll be cancelled like the F-22 of course, but the fielding of the plane will be most likely very slow.

And also, I don't know why everyone is going "omg Russia flew a 5th gen plane, now Russia's fortunes will go better" (slight exaggeration, the meaning's the same though). The flight is a huge success, but that hardly equals a big turnaround for the Russians - they're still economically in a (relatively) large load of poo.

(PS: On the whole oil, gas thing - let's not count the chickens before the eggs hatch.)
 

victtodd

New Member
Costs for the PAK-FA project should be helped by Indian financing and purchases of the 2-seat version; and anyways, if oil/gas prices go through the roof again, the Russians will be swimming in cash.

Another price peak of oil and gas is not on the horizon given the prospect of world economy and the shift to green economy across the globe.

In cold-war era, military technologies were given priority and generally much superior to the civilian ones of its time and tended to be adopted by civilian sectors at a much later time. Since the end of cold war, militaries are increasingly looking to the progress in civilian technologies, which is nearly equally advanced and much affordable and user-friendly:D. So an economy with a sound civilian technological base is vital to a sustainable military power. Russia might be awash with cash again thanks to its vast natural resources, however, its civilian technological base is withering, and fast. The progress of Russia´s military technology is still much predicated on its Soviets heritage, manifested by the 5th gen fighter project and new gen ICBM.

Unless Russian effectively address this crippling problem, it runs the risk of becoming another Saudi Arabia at best or even worse. Then it would have to buy its 6th gen fighter from USA or even India if it still can afford to:coffee:.
 

Lion

Senior Member
J-10? IIRC, The J-10 is considered by the PRC as a 3rd Generation (4th generation as we know it) and NOT a 3.5th Generation (4.5th gen) plane. The J-10B should qualify as a 3.5th generation (4.5th gen) plane. But it is still in a prototype stage. The Russians flew their own 4.5th generation plane the Su-35BM about 2 years back. The RuAF has ordered 48 of these planes. The plane is also available for export. It has some impressive specs.

And today Russian flew their prototype 5th generation plane PAK-FA (Sukhoi T-50). Check the SDF World Armed Forces - http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/russian-fifth-generation-fighter-4897.html

The reason Russian slumped is because the horror days they had when the Soviet Union collapsed. Not that they lack the capability. but that should now start to change

J-10 airframe definitely qualify as 4.5th generation(highly unstable pitch,advance FBW and super maneuovrability, the avionic will soon be uddated to J-10b before it will qualify really as a 4.5th completely against Typhoon and Rafale.

Su-35BM despite being claim as 4.5th. It still can't escape having the basic of being evolve from Su-27.

As for PAF-KA... as u all mention PROTOTYPE. Everybody knows Russia nowaday is always bog down by delay and test failure(Bulava).. It will really take a lot of years before this plane is really being acceptable.

I am quite sure China 5th generation fighter will enter service before PAF-KA.
Things in China is moving so fast what being accomplish in past cannot be used as gauge for future.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
J-10 airframe definitely qualify as 4.5th generation(highly unstable pitch,advance FBW and super maneuovrability, the avionic will soon be uddated to J-10b before it will qualify really as a 4.5th completely against Typhoon and Rafale.
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Key phrase there is 'will soon be updated'. When will this be? Until then its a 4th gen plane. J-10B off-course looks very promising. She really has evolved beautifully from the original version. Probably enter service next year (I think that what Tphuang suggested).

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Su-35BM despite being claim as 4.5th. It still can't escape having the basic of being evolve from Su-27.
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Its a completely redesigned flanker. Not the average Su-27SK -
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. Off-course the key thing is, the Su-35BM has NOT entered service with the RuAF yet. It'll be interesting to see whether the J-10B might enter service before that. I think it might. One Su-35BM crashed last year.

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As for PAF-KA... as u all mention PROTOTYPE. Everybody knows Russia nowaday is always bog down by delay and test failure(Bulava).. It will really take a lot of years before this plane is really being acceptable.

I am quite sure China 5th generation fighter will enter service before PAF-KA.
Things in China is moving so fast what being accomplish in past cannot be used as gauge for future.

Only time will tell. It'll be great if the J-XX enters service before, but only time will tell. Be it Russia or China, building a 5th generation plane is an extremely complicated matter. Time will tell you will get there 1st.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Its a completely redesigned flanker. Not the average Su-27SK

Every can see, its a evolution of Su-27SK, not yr so called completely redesign flanker. Stop trying to be denying. If Su-35 can be called complete redesign.

J-7G is complete redesign of Mig-21 F-13 and cannot be called a Mig-21 deprived... ;)
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
Every can see, its a evolution of Su-27SK, not yr so called completely redesign flanker. Stop trying to be denying. If Su-35 can be called complete redesign.

J-7G is complete redesign of Mig-21 F-13 and cannot be called a Mig-21 deprived... ;)

Off-course the J-7G/J-7G2 is complete redesign of the MiG-21F. :D I don't know what it has common with the original MiG-21 other than the basic look :D Same holds true to the J-11B :D
 
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