russian analysis of PLA

L

Lion

Senior Member
rhino123 said:
Guys... I believe we are all underestimating the Russian. They have a strong industrial background and infrastructure, although at this time all those are in slump because of the financial difficulties the country had runs into after the breakup of Soviet Union. And Russia also has the technical know how to get things done.

Yes... we are not seeing much these days and the Russian had gone pretty quiet... but please remember that they have a very valuable resource that could still put them back in their position when they use this resource well. And that resource is - OIL.

The Russian has OIL. and if their government is very good (I believe Putin is), he could still pull Russia out of the slump. And once out... you will be expected to see Russia fly... at a much quicker pace than most other nations around her.

China of course had came out of the shadow of old Soviet Union... many of her doctrines had also been revised, modified or changed entirely, and many of her new equipment and weaponries are based on both Western and Russian designs, so we are actually seeing a new system overall.

But from all that I have read this far... it seemed that we are bashing the Russian up because of some authors that didn't know what he is writing about. But lets just put the blame on that author and not on the country. Because as explained... Russia is still not dead yet... and there are high chance of her jumping up to become number 2 again - militarily and economically.
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Oh ya.. They even need to buy LHD from French. Great work from Russian. ;)

Maybe China can charged Russia cheaper if they decide to buy from China.

Certainly being a raw material exporting country will not get you too far away. As we can witness easily how Russia is badly hit by last 2years financial crisis. You will not know maybe another wave of financial crisis going to attack soon.
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
The article is clearly meant for a Russian audience so it's written with that overture to make them feel good. Just like if you read US military analysis of the PLA, you will notice they tend to rachet up the perceived threat the PLA poses. So just take it with a grain of salt. Some points are true of the PLA, others are more opinion. China has more or less mastered mass production, so now we'll see them expand and grow indigenous R&D. Just remember, when Japan first started to embrace Western technology, they were ridiculed for simply copying. Over time, they no longer have that stigma. Patience is a virtue.
 
rhino123

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Lion said:
Oh ya.. They even need to buy LHD from French. Great work from Russian. ;)
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And how is it shameful (as implied by you) by buying other people's stuff? I once was appalled by the idea. But if you looked into the decision, it was quite sound actually. Russia's harbour had not been very active in recent decades and it would take sometime for it to come out of the slump. As I have already mentioned i my post before, Russia is not as what it used to be, but it is not dead yet. They do have the technical know how and infrastructure to still come out fine when money started coming in. Russia is in need of a new ship and it is very wise to just buy off the shelf when the ship actually serve the purpose and since they have not come up with anything new, it would be wise to study what other people is doing. That had been done in many areas and in different industries even from an industry of well developed nation. One sentense to sum it up, "It is never ashame to learn from others what you are not really good in, rather than spent unnecessarily money to reinvent a wheel."

Lion said:
Maybe China can charged Russia cheaper if they decide to buy from China.
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Maybe. But they did not approach China. It is business, my friend. Plus I don't believe China had build a LHD of the same class as what the French is offering yet.

Lion said:
Certainly being a raw material exporting country will not get you too far away. As we can witness easily how Russia is badly hit by last 2years financial crisis. You will not know maybe another wave of financial crisis going to attack soon.
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If you haven't notice, not only Russia is badly hit by the financial crisis. US, China, Australia, almost all of Europe, especially UK, are also hit badly by the financial crisis. If the next wave of crisis going to attack soon, you can be sure huge number of nations is affected. Not just russia.
 
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adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
If we look at the inventory of US, Russian, and Chinese military today, we'd find a vast collection of hardware based on designs from the Cold War era. For example, F-15 and F-16 in USAF and MiG-29 and Su-27 in Russian AF service are 1980s era aircraft.

PLAAF's weakness in this comparison is that, its aircraft from the Cold War era is based on 3rd generation design, vs. 4th generation design for US and Russia. In terms of armored vehicles and tanks, PLA's primary MBT was the T-59, vs. M-60 / M1 for US Army and T-72 / T-80 for the Russian army.

So if we want to compare the Cold War era stuff, US and Russia is definitely ahead of PLA.

Moving forward, the US already has F-22 and F-35 in place to replace the older aircraft. Russia does not, neither does China. I have yet to see PAK-FA or J-XX, and even if these are introduced, I doubt Russia and China can afford to buy them in the same quantity as the US. The US plans to purchase over 2,400 F-35's. I doubt the Russian AF and PLAAF would build more than a few hundred of their next-generation aircraft.
 
L

Lion

Senior Member
adeptitus said:
If we look at the inventory of US, Russian, and Chinese military today, we'd find a vast collection of hardware based on designs from the Cold War era. For example, F-15 and F-16 in USAF and MiG-29 and Su-27 in Russian AF service are 1980s era aircraft.

PLAAF's weakness in this comparison is that, its aircraft from the Cold War era is based on 3rd generation design, vs. 4th generation design for US and Russia. In terms of armored vehicles and tanks, PLA's primary MBT was the T-59, vs. M-60 / M1 for US Army and T-72 / T-80 for the Russian army.

So if we want to compare the Cold War era stuff, US and Russia is definitely ahead of PLA.

Moving forward, the US already has F-22 and F-35 in place to replace the older aircraft. Russia does not, neither does China. I have yet to see PAK-FA or J-XX, and even if these are introduced, I doubt Russia and China can afford to buy them in the same quantity as the US. The US plans to purchase over 2,400 F-35's. I doubt the Russian AF and PLAAF would build more than a few hundred of their next-generation aircraft.
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Why did you skip 4.5th generation? Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen

China has J-10, Russia? Not even a 4.5th generation airframe. Russian has stagnant.
 
L

Lion

Senior Member
rhino123 said:
And how is it shameful (as implied by you) by buying other people's stuff? I once was appalled by the idea. But if you looked into the decision, it was quite sound actually. Russia's harbour had not been very active in recent decades and it would take sometime for it to come out of the slump. As I have already mentioned i my post before, Russia is not as what it used to be, but it is not dead yet. They do have the technical know how and infrastructure to still come out fine when money started coming in. Russia is in need of a new ship and it is very wise to just buy off the shelf when the ship actually serve the purpose and since they have not come up with anything new, it would be wise to study what other people is doing. That had been done in many areas and in different industries even from an industry of well developed nation. One sentense to sum it up, "It is never ashame to learn from others what you are not really good in, rather than spent unnecessarily money to reinvent a wheel."
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It will never be shameful to buy and learn from others. But to try to poke at others while you yourself are equally doing that is puts you on equal foot,right? This Russian author claiming so glamourous about Russian hardware and design that he forgot Russia is now start buying other stuff to fill its short coming. Which is totally 180 degrees turn from Soviet Union time. And this is totally different from China which used to buy lots of stuff from foreign countries to fill its short coming. The author even claim ,military deal with China almost dry up. While Russia is setting a new trend which they start to acquire military hardware from foreign country which claim be never heard before during Soviet Union times.

rhino123 said:
Maybe. But they did not approach China. It is business, my friend. Plus I don't believe China had build a LHD of the same class as what the French is offering yet.
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Russia has not even demonstrate making one of a similiar or on par level LHD like PLAN 071.


rhino123 said:
If you haven't notice, not only Russia is badly hit by the financial crisis. US, China, Australia, almost all of Europe, especially UK, are also hit badly by the financial crisis. If the next wave of crisis going to attack soon, you can be sure huge number of nations is affected. Not just russia.
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I didn't say no country is immuned to World financial economic crisis but the damage Russia suffered is much bigger than many other countries. Don't believe you can try goggle it. This even more explain the flaw of Russian econ system. Heavily depend on raw material export will not get you too far.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
russia NEEDS to get away from dependence on oil export, this is not only because oil is vulnerable to price fluctuation, the more important thing is dependency on one's own natural resources often curtail development on other things. you dont see China and the US or UK or Germany being bigger exporters of natural resources. but look at all the supposedly rich middle eastern states, their industry base is as good as nil.

so if they have to the russians should start using all of its foreign reserve exchange and even borrow money to work on other things.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Originally Posted by rhino123
Guys... I believe we are all underestimating the Russian. They have a strong industrial background and infrastructure, although at this time all those are in slump because of the financial difficulties the country had runs into after the breakup of Soviet Union. And Russia also has the technical know how to get things done.

Yes... we are not seeing much these days and the Russian had gone pretty quiet... but please remember that they have a very valuable resource that could still put them back in their position when they use this resource well.
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Really? after 10 years trying they can't even produced decent SLBM. Here is the tortuous development of Bulava missile

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)
The decision on developing the Bulava missile was adopted in 1998 after three unsuccessful tests of the Bark missile of the Miass Construction Bureau named after Makeev. The missile completed the first stage launch-tests at the end of 2004. It was originally scheduled for completion in late 2006, but is now not expected to enter service until 2009. The first boats to carry the Bulava will be the forthcoming Borei class submarines, which will be outfitted with sixteen missiles each. The first three boats of this class will be deployed in 2010 (a total of 5 were planned for 2015.[4]) A land-based variant is also expected.

On 19 September 2008, a senior Navy official announced that Russia will adopt the new Bulava-M submarine-based ballistic missile for service with the Navy in 2009.[5] However, as of July 2009[update] about half of the tests of the submarine-based Bulava-M have been failures (See the flight test section below).

On 22 July 2009, RIA Novosti reported that Yury Solomonov had resigned from the head of the research institute that was designing the Bulava and that a new director would be appointed in September.[6]

On 15 September 2009, RIA Novosti reported that Yury Solomonov will most likely retain his post as general designer for the missiles.[7]

Sergei Kovalyov, the designer of three generations of Russian strategic submarines, said that the continuing test failures of the Bulava missile are due to several things
 
A

antiterror13

Brigadier
Hendrik_2000 said:
Really? after 10 years trying they can't even produced decent SLBM. Here is the tortuous development of Bulava missile

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
)
The decision on developing the Bulava missile was adopted in 1998 after three unsuccessful tests of the Bark missile of the Miass Construction Bureau named after Makeev. The missile completed the first stage launch-tests at the end of 2004. It was originally scheduled for completion in late 2006, but is now not expected to enter service until 2009. The first boats to carry the Bulava will be the forthcoming Borei class submarines, which will be outfitted with sixteen missiles each. The first three boats of this class will be deployed in 2010 (a total of 5 were planned for 2015.[4]) A land-based variant is also expected.

On 19 September 2008, a senior Navy official announced that Russia will adopt the new Bulava-M submarine-based ballistic missile for service with the Navy in 2009.[5] However, as of July 2009[update] about half of the tests of the submarine-based Bulava-M have been failures (See the flight test section below).

On 22 July 2009, RIA Novosti reported that Yury Solomonov had resigned from the head of the research institute that was designing the Bulava and that a new director would be appointed in September.[6]

On 15 September 2009, RIA Novosti reported that Yury Solomonov will most likely retain his post as general designer for the missiles.[7]

Sergei Kovalyov, the designer of three generations of Russian strategic submarines, said that the continuing test failures of the Bulava missile are due to several things
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so Chinese essentially got it right ahead of Russian with JL-2 SLBM and 094 SSBN
 
H

HKSDU

Junior Member
Lion said:
Why did you skip 4.5th generation? Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen

China has J-10, Russia? Not even a 4.5th generation airframe. Russian has stagnant.
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Well lets not country bash Russia too much, their are still a nation who has the Soviet technology know infrastructure behind them. Though speaking only on infrastructure, their experianced engineers have mostly moved to other nations after the Soviet collaspe. Due to the pay, it was said that a cab driver earns more then an engineer in Russia, back during the collaspe.


Russia during recent times have inducted Su-35 which in turn can be classfied as a 4.5th, and not to mention its Mig-35. Though they are still largely Soviet oriented design it has evolved and matured the system. That being said the USAF still have largely based Cold War era fighters in their inventory that account for large portion of their force. Even todays advanced fighters being produce of the lines, are somewhat influenced from Cold War era. An example is F-22 somewhat influenced and based of the already matured F-15 frame. The only concern for Russia is in its ability to keep its military afloat and up to par.

Looking at its naval exercises their naval fleet their destroyers are aging and corroding due to the lack of maintenance and repair. Their naval fleet currently are in really poor condition, pit up against another significant fleet, I can only assume it won't fair up well in current status. :coffee:
 
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