RUSSIA, CHINA to sell planes to Pakistan

Russian aircraft are expensive to maintain - but cheap to buy. Anyways only time will tell...although I doubt PAF will purchase Su-27/30 if it wants F-16s.

In my opinion, when considering costs you also have to factor in the availability of replacement parts. One reason why F-16s (and before that, F-4s) effectively proliferated widely around the globe was that it was easy to find spare parts, because there were many nations that had it.

On the other hand, the F-14 sale to Iran was realistically (or logistically) stupid. Nobody else in the region operated it, making technical issues very difficult. (The complex swing-wing didn't help matteres much)

So it's hard to say in the long run if X aircraft from X nations are more expensive to operate. It probably depends on what "allies" are using, and if there is interaction.

SABRE said:

China can sell MKK and Pakistan can later upgrade it with western avionics. If china sells Su-30 to Pakistan, India doesnt have much to scream abt.

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No. there shall be objections to it, and Russia is likely to agree, since it disturbs a strategic defence partnership between Russia and India.

The Russian defence minister Sergei Ivanov refused the re-export of RD-93 engines to Pakistan.

"The deal is not yet final. In any case China would have to enter End User License Agreement like on all previous deals. We will not give the engines if Pakistan is shown as end-user, although it is not a weapon system," the PTI quoted Ivanov as saying."

Source:


Thus, the sale of entire aircraft to Pakistan by Russia, is unlikely.

Indianfighter said:

No. India will object to it, and Russia is likely to agree, since it disturbs a strategic defence partnership between Russia and India.

The Russian defence minister Sergei Ivanov refused the re-export of RD-93 engines to Pakistan.

"The deal is not yet final. In any case China would have to enter End User License Agreement like on all previous deals. We will not give the engines if Pakistan is shown as end-user, although it is not a weapon system," the PTI quoted Ivanov as saying."

Source:

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So the sale of entire aircraft to Pakistan by Russia, is thus unlikely.

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That's old news...at the moment it appears that russia is desperate to break
out of it's 'landlocked' position both in terms of it's ties with shall we say more
'islamically' oientated countries eg Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.

Thus it's offered Pakistan a number of carrots

1. The steel deal which will be the largest russian steel deal with a foreign
company..obviously the Saudi partners are designed to prevent any
opposition from certain quarters in Pakistan

2. Russia has given the nod to Tajikistan's government to increase it's
relations with Pakistan in preparation for eventual oil pipelines etc
you know how sensitive relations have been between pakistan and
the tajik government mostly because pakistan backed the anti government
pro american opposition. see the article in world military matters

3.

Russia proposes to be partner in gas pipeline

New Delhi: Russia is interested in becoming an active partner in the Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline that will help India meet its energy needs to a great extent.

This was conveyed by Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Fradikov during his visit here, the country's Ambassador to India Vyacheslav I. Trubnikov said at a seminar on "Indo-Russian Relations in New Global Scenario" here On Tuesday. It was inaugurated by the former Prime Minister, I.K. Gujral.

Mr. Trubnikov said the excellent ties between the two countries could help further consolidate cooperation in the nuclear field. Russia had recently supplied 60 tonnes of low enriched uranium for the Tarapur nuclear plant. — UNI

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See above. There is no reason for Pakistan to agree to the above if Russia maintains a cold war with Pakistan. Russia needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs Russia. The pipeline does NOT need a Russian route. The fact is that Russian energy companies want to get in on the act. Basically the western energy giants have lost out big time.

I suggest based on the above that strategic realities have changed. The Russians as ex-marxists know that the economic base limits the superstructure

Indianfighter said:

No. India will object to it, and Russia is likely to agree, since it disturbs a strategic defence partnership between Russia and India.

The Russian defence minister Sergei Ivanov refused the re-export of RD-93 engines to Pakistan.

"The deal is not yet final. In any case China would have to enter End User License Agreement like on all previous deals. We will not give the engines if Pakistan is shown as end-user, although it is not a weapon system," the PTI quoted Ivanov as saying."

Source:

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Thus, the sale of entire aircraft to Pakistan by Russia, is unlikely.

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India can bark all it wants - but things will not go its way. Russia knows that dealing with China - especially on the issue of engines and support technology - is risky. Stop from receiving Chinese profit and you will never receive profit from that country again; China's industry is just too advanced for that stuff.

Besides, Russia should also know that there are other engines (ones that are better and cheaper to maintain) than RD-93. Nonetheless, I'm not worried about Russia's occasional barking because the end words of the Pakistan Air Chief are "engines are not a problem" or "China has given us assurances".

Please note that Russia and Pakistan are 2 sovereign nations that recognize each other and are thus free to conduct trade and co-operate economically.

US, UN China or...ahem...India cannot stop Russia and Pakistan from trading.

All I said was that defence trading may not be possible, considering what the Russian Defence minister had to say.

Why this thread taking a turn to an India Bashing one ???

Pakistan had the choice to buy the entire Ukrainian fleet of Su-27s for a low price. But the maintenance costs would be enourmous! And they were used, so who knows how the Ukrainians maintained their planes. Global Security.org did say the Ukrainians have had a lot of trouble with their Air Force. Plus I wouldn't want to buy Russian aircraft while thousands of muslims are being killed in Chechnya.

ArjunMk1 said:

Why this thread taking a turn to an India Bashing one ???

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okay, you are right. Do not make India into the guilty party here. It's the Russian's decision whether they want to make export to Pakistan and jeopardize their relationship with India. Let's leave it as that. We will know if the re-export of RD-93 is allowed in a couple of years. This RD-93 issue has been argued to death, let's not continue with it again, okay?

FreeAsia2000 said:

We'll see.
Personally I can't see pakistan wanting to buy russian planes because
of the cost both in training and because of the small numbers involved.
The su-30 IS an upgraded version of the su-27 who's main office was i believe based in ukraine

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Ukraine is not a major user of the Su-27 series aircraft. Their primary fighter is the MiG-29. Sukhoi has been a Russia company since its founding by Pavel Sukhoi in 1939, their main office is in Moscow and not Ukraine. The Su-30 was developed in 1996, and the Su-30MKI is co-developed between Russia, India, plus input from several other countries (e.g. IAI).

There's a proposal to merge Sukhoi with Mikoyan, Ilyushin, Irkut, Tupolev, and Yakolev into a single company, United Aircraft Corp.

The_Zergling said:

In my opinion, when considering costs you also have to factor in the availability of replacement parts. One reason why F-16s (and before that, F-4s) effectively proliferated widely around the globe was that it was easy to find spare parts, because there were many nations that had it.

On the other hand, the F-14 sale to Iran was realistically (or logistically) stupid. Nobody else in the region operated it, making technical issues very difficult. (The complex swing-wing didn't help matteres much)

So it's hard to say in the long run if X aircraft from X nations are more expensive to operate. It probably depends on what "allies" are using, and if there is interaction.

Click to expand...

Iran requested fighter aircraft from the US in early 1970's, and was offered a choice of F-14 & F-15. At the time the F-15A was equipped with the APG-63 radar, along with sidewinders and sparrows. The F-14A was equipped with the AN/AWG-9 and the AIM-54A Phoenix missile (as well as AIM-9 & AIM-7). I think the F-14 prolly looked more impressive, so the Iranians ordered 80 + 714 Phoenix missiles (284 delivered).

Comparred to the other AF in the region, perhaps with exception to Russians, the F-14A's would've made the Iranian AF the strongest in equipment. It was reported that Jan 1979, the Iranian AF test-fired a Phoenix missle and successfully hit a drone target at range of 212 km.