russia and india discuss the possipility of making 5th generation fighter together

Re: russia and india discuss the possipility of making 5th generation fighter togethe

coykiesaol said:

Russia is a ally of China ,but now they cooperate with India ....what happened?

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Look at it this way... Russia is a businessman. Whoever pay the money will be into the program. If China had wanted to join the program and pay the money to do it, Russia will allowed China in too.

There are no longterm and permanent friends and allies especially between nations and companies... likewise, there are no longterm and permanent enemies too.

Re: russia and india discuss the possipility of making 5th generation fighter togethe

rhino123 said:

Look at it this way... Russia is a businessman. Whoever pay the money will be into the program. If China had wanted to join the program and pay the money to do it, Russia will allowed China in too.

There are no longterm and permanent friends and allies especially between nations and companies... likewise, there are no longterm and permanent enemies too.

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It's not so much about whether China wants to or not, but more of China's understanding of joint projects like such...China always get screwed over when comes to joint R&D projects, a change of wind and the foreign helps just pulled, leaving China with nothing, so now they prefer do it on their own, and use whatever means necessary to obtain whatever technology they yet to have.

Of course we can always hear Russia's displease over this in Kanwa's publishing, but unlike China, India's position is different - willingness to play the part as a foot soldier in the superpower's effort to siege China, so India has lesser worries in joint project getting sudden death; the only thing India has to worry about would be the project got drag on beyond the schedule and expenditures beyond the projection - both that India has pretty poor records.

Re: russia and india discuss the possipility of making 5th generation fighter togethe

MwRYum said:

It's not so much about whether China wants to or not, but more of China's understanding of joint projects like such...China always get screwed over when comes to joint R&D projects, a change of wind and the foreign helps just pulled, leaving China with nothing, so now they prefer do it on their own, and use whatever means necessary to obtain whatever technology they yet to have.

Of course we can always hear Russia's displease over this in Kanwa's publishing, but unlike China, India's position is different - willingness to play the part as a foot soldier in the superpower's effort to siege China, so India has lesser worries in joint project getting sudden death; the only thing India has to worry about would be the project got drag on beyond the schedule and expenditures beyond the projection - both that India has pretty poor records.

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There is hardly a need to discuss China in this thread ..... the topic is only about Indian and Russian co-operation.

Both nations have had successful co-operation in Brahmos. So, that example encourages further co-operation in other areas.

India also collaborates in joint projects with France (Snecma) and Israel (IAI). So, it's not that collaboration is only with Russia.

And these bilateral relationships have absolutely NOTHING to do with China.

There is no need to drag China into India's bilateral relationships.


Whether China decides to collaborate or go it alone, it entirely up to it. If it has had bad experiences in the past .... it's free not to do it again.

India and China are decidedly different. It is too much of a stetch in analysis .... to say that if India collaborates with Russia or Israel, so should China or that is why, China shouldn't.

If China wants to go it alone .... that is no justification that India should follow suit. And it's also fine, if India find that going alone is a better approach in itself (irrespective of whether China collaborates or goes it alone).

I fail to understand why and how China has been dragged into this thread ?

Re: russia and india discuss the possipility of making 5th generation fighter togethe

bingo said:

There is hardly a need to discuss China in this thread ..... the topic is only about Indian and Russian co-operation.

Both nations have had successful co-operation in Brahmos. So, that example encourages further co-operation in other areas.

India also collaborates in joint projects with France (Snecma) and Israel (IAI). So, it's not that collaboration is only with Russia.

And these bilateral relationships have absolutely NOTHING to do with China.

There is no need to drag China into India's bilateral relationships.


Whether China decides to collaborate or go it alone, it entirely up to it. If it has had bad experiences in the past .... it's free not to do it again.

India and China are decidedly different. It is too much of a stetch in analysis .... to say that if India collaborates with Russia or Israel, so should China or that is why, China shouldn't.

If China wants to go it alone .... that is no justification that India should follow suit. And it's also fine, if India find that going alone is a better approach in itself (irrespective of whether China collaborates or goes it alone).

I fail to understand why and how China has been dragged into this thread ?

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Aside from your trolling against me, let me say this: for both India and China are developing nations pushing their way into the ranks of regional superpower, and facing the same need to modernize their own military hardware, both aim to establish their own modern military-industrial complex, it's valid to compare the separate models the 2 nations are taking. Thus it always have a match-up between the 2.

Now, there's no saying who got the better deal - India has the access to the world market and they can, in theory, get the best into play the fastest, but in the long run the supply chain is not control by them; China obviously have to work slow since nobody gonna sell what they want, but they have the core knowledge.

Now back to this topic, we can see this time India again plays the fundraiser, but by how much the core knowledge they'd eventually obtain? By how much they've the say in the R&D? Or percentage of personnel involved in the key sections? What'd be the work division between the 2? If India keep allowing the Russians to have the bigger share of the pie, which reduce the chance of complications, they can't hope to gain much to grow their own capabilities, which is their ultimate goal.

Re: russia and india discuss the possipility of making 5th generation fighter togethe

MwRYum said:

Now back to this topic, we can see this time India again plays the fundraiser, but by how much the core knowledge they'd eventually obtain? By how much they've the say in the R&D? Or percentage of personnel involved in the key sections? What'd be the work division between the 2? If India keep allowing the Russians to have the bigger share of the pie, which reduce the chance of complications, they can't hope to gain much to grow their own capabilities, which is their ultimate goal.

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In reference to the topic .... I'm myself not a great supporter of India doing this 5th gen stuff with Russia.

I think the collaboration is basically be like the one on Su-30MKI ..... and not like the one on Brahmos.

Su-30MKI is entirely a Russian plane .... India does some minor add-one, and got some french / israeli add-ons onto the Russian plane. Development of Su-30MKI was similar to Su-30MKK, which is also a russian plane with minimal non-russian inputs.

Like Su-30MKI, India will probably get the right to license manufacture the russian plane.

Brahmos has more Indian inputs .... even though the core ramjet engine is Russian.

However, both Su-30MKI and Brahmos are different from a 5th gen fighter. Both were vital to meet immediate requirements of Indian defence. And India could not have produced Su-30MKI or Brahmos entirely on it's own. Hence, the decision to purchase both of these systems.

I think it's a bit too early for India to look for 5th gen planes ....esp since no body in the neighbourhood is going to have them for atleast a decade.

Su-30MKI is rated among the most potent military planes in Asia. So, while the Su-30MKIs last their utility, India has the time to go for self-development of 5th gen technologies.

India should be quite okay to increase the numbers of Su-30MKI .... and lock itself into purchasing a russian FGFA only when it's matured and proven to be good. It could then make it's own add-ons to russian FGFA, like it did to Su-30MKI.

Long term R&D benefits come from HAL Tejas ... which is going to be folllowed with AMCA - Adavanced medium combat aircraft. R&D on AMCA is going to provide some useful 5th gen technologies.

In fact, all these are working on in parallel actually .... probably the defence planners do take into account all aspects. -- It could be that Russians are offering economically more lucrative deal for FGFA right now .... and later, when the program matures, they could ask for bigger money. So, India could just be locking into an under-development russian plane at a cheaper price.

That's what I think.