Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

Bltizo said:

This is where I diverge with you -- to put it bluntly, I think the 076 is intended to be capable of enabling and conducting amphibious operations in a high intensity conflict beyond the first island chain.

In that kind of mission profile, it goes without saying that the 076 will be well supported by a number of carriers, destroyers, submarines, and long range land based aircraft and missiles.
The goal of the 076's fixed wing complement would be to supplement the strike capability and ISR capability of the task force -- the primary purpose of the ship after is deliver troops and materiel onto enemy held islands after their defenses and command/control etc has been sufficiently degraded.

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If you're talking about amphibious operations in a high intensity conflict beyond the First Island Chain, you're basically looking at Guam or another of the Marianas islands.

But for the next 15 years, there won't be anywhere near enough large carrier decks or carrier aircraft to obtain local air superiority for a successful amphibious operation.

Unless of course, there is a truly huge acceleration from current Chinese military spending levels.

Whilst that is a possibility given a China-US cold war, it still doesn't change the fact that air superiority is a prerequisite to a successful amphibious operation. So resources are better devoted to air control capabilities first, rather than to amphibious assault capabilities in secondary areas.

Anyway, I think we'll just have to wait and see what comes out of the shipyards.

I think the key metrics will be the number of catapults and the deck layout, which will show the actual balance between air control versus amphibious assault capability.

Bltizo said:

None of that provides a valid argument for why we should expect the 076 to normally operate a manned fighter complement.

You're viewing the 076 as a conventional medium carrier as a way of balancing or outmatching the USN's carrier force -- rather than looking at the 076 primarily as an LHD first that has some additional fixed wing capabilities by virtue of having CATOBAR.

Expecting the 076 to operate with an airwing like a miniature CATOBAR carrier rather than having an amphibious assault airwing with some secondary fixed wing capabilities is counter to how this 076 ship has been described by the insiders and certainly counter to how Yankee has written about it.

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The most valuable and irreplaceable role of a CATOBAR carrier is to launch AWACS - being the eye of the fleet. The rest doesn't matter and can be augmented by more destroyers anyway.

To expect the PLAN to have the unique and probably dominating ability to deploy those eyes effectively everywhere on the cheap instead of having to tow along a 100k+ tonnes nuclear carrier and to not abuse it is absurd in my opinion. It make absolutely no sense.

visitor123 said:

But that is the American's problem. By the time the F35 program was being materialized they'd already had dozens of LHDs. They fell for the sunk cost fallacy: instead of making new ships they tried to make old ships more useful and hence STOVL.
Either that or they could not incorporate CATOBAR into small and cheap platforms like LHDs. Case in point: the QE. There is no reason other than technical deficiency to not equip a ship that big with CATOBAR. They don't because they can't.

China has 2 LHDs both of which are not even commissioned. There is no reason to spend more resources trying to make them more useful than their intended role.

Honestly, with EMALS the PLAN has leapfrogged the USN at least in the surface force. If the PLAN can have AWACS on demand cheaply for every small task force out there, the USN surface vessels have no choice but to hug their carriers to have any chance of survival.

Even for a navy as big as the USN, there is no way in hell they can keep up with 1 of their carrier for every 076.

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As far as I know, the marines were happy to have the F-35B because it expanded their capabilities. On the other hand, the navy doesn't like the F-35C.

AndrewS said:

If you're talking about amphibious operations in a high intensity conflict beyond the First Island Chain, you're basically looking at Guam or another of the Marianas islands.

But for the next 15 years, there won't be anywhere near enough large carrier decks or carrier aircraft to obtain local air superiority for a successful amphibious operation.

Unless of course, there is a truly huge acceleration from current Chinese military spending levels.

Whilst that is a possibility given a China-US cold war, it still doesn't change the fact that air superiority is a prerequisite to a successful amphibious operation. So resources are better devoted to air control capabilities first, rather than to amphibious assault capabilities in secondary areas.

Anyway, I think we'll just have to wait and see what comes out of the shipyards.

I think the key metrics will be the number of catapults and the deck layout, which will show the actual balance between air control versus amphibious assault capability.

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Yes, you've basically summed up the overall spirit of my position, geography included.

I don't think 076 is meant to be the primary hard hitter to significantly contribute to the fight for air superiority beyond the first island chain -- that will be done by other ships, aircraft and weapons instead.

By extension, as you correctly mention, my vision and interpretation for what the insiders have described for 076's role inevitably implies that the overall PLA's level of procurement (across air force, navy, and rocket forces) will be somewhat more ambitious than previously considered.

visitor123 said:

The most valuable and irreplaceable role of a CATOBAR carrier is to launch AWACS - being the eye of the fleet. The rest doesn't matter and can be augmented by more destroyers anyway.

To expect the PLAN to have the unique and probably dominating ability to deploy those eyes effectively everywhere on the cheap instead of having to tow along a 100k+ tonnes nuclear carrier and to not abuse it is absurd in my opinion. It make absolutely no sense.

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I'm not going to rule out the possibility of 076 being able to maintain and deploy AEW&C via its catapults and arresting gear in the same way that I'm not going to rule out the possibility of 076 being able to maintain and deploy manned combat aircraft.

However, every KJ-600 or J-XY that one consider basing on an 076 means less helicopters that it will be equipped with, inevitably leading us back to the problem of -- what is the role of this ship?


As I've mentioned in previous posts, just because 076 is an LHD with "CATOBAR" capability doesn't mean its catapults, flight deck or arresting gear are intended to be capable of fielding heavy manned fixed wing fighters or fixed wing KJ-600.
Specifically, what if the 076 is deliberately fitted with a less powerful variant of the EM catapult and downrated arresting gear, intended to be capable of operating medium to large UCAVs but incapable of operating large fighters or AEW&C at load?


Instead of seeing 076 as primarily an LHD with CATOBAR provisions for some fixed wing capability to enable its LHD mission, I think there is too much focus on the CATOBAR aspect and expecting it to have all the same qualitative capabilities of a full sized CATOBAR carrier.

Media speculate on China's possible next generation amphibious assault ship Type 076
By Liu Xuanzun Source: Global Times Published: 2020/7/24 1:08:35

China held a launch ceremony for its first Type 075 amphibious assault ship in Shanghai on September 25, 2019. Photo: 81.cn

A set of procurement request notices released by China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC) 708 Institute recently stirred wild speculations among foreign and Chinese media and military enthusiasts about a new type of Chinese amphibious assault ship dubbed Type 076, which is purported to feature electromagnetic catapults, fixed wing aircraft and integrated electric propulsion system.

Citing procurement request notices originally posted on the Chinese military's weapon and equipment procurement website weain.mil.cn over the past few months, Forbes reported on Thursday that the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy is likely building a new type of amphibious assault ship.

According to the notices, the in-development new warship will likely feature an electromagnetic aircraft launch system, which would allow it to carry fixed wing aircraft including fighter jets and drones that don't require short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) such as the US' F-35B fighter jet, reports said.

Forbes speculated that China could develop a fighter aircraft suitable for the ship, or use smaller, stealth-capable drones.

The Chinese military has not yet announced development of a new type of amphibious assault ship.

Chinese media, including Ordnance Industry Science Technology, a Xi'an-based magazine on the national defense industry, and Shanghai-based news portal guancha.cn, also covered the speculations about the Type 076 on Thursday.

Ordnance Industry Science Technology said the warship could be equipped with electromagnetic catapults to launch fixed wing aircraft. An integrated electric propulsion system was indicated in the procurement request notices which suggest the speculated Type 076 could provide enough power to support the catapults, it said.

China has developed stealth attack drones like the GJ-11, which made its debut at the 2019 National Day military parade, and the Type 076 could be equipped similar drones, the Chinese magazine said, noting that the Type 076 could become more like a medium-sized aircraft carrier while still maintaining amphibious landing capabilities.

Military analysts reached by the Global Times said the US has developed the F-35B fighter jet and is also selling many of them to Japan, making their amphibious assault ships and landing helicopter docks de facto aircraft carriers, which would bring huge threats to China's national defense.

China does not possess a STOVL fighter jet like the F-35B, but it has mastered technologies in electromagnetic launching systems, so it makes sense for China if it uses electronic catapults to launch aircraft from amphibious assault ships as an alternative to STOVL aircraft to defend itself from hostile F-35B-equipped warships, analysts said.

Like China's Type 075 amphibious assault ship, the Type 076, if it exists, could be deployed in island seizing operations in the South China Sea and the island of Taiwan, analysts said, noting that it could also be used to safeguard China's overseas interests, as China now has many citizens, investments, projects and strategic assets in countries around the world.

China has launched two Type 075s in Shanghai since 2019. They are expected to carry only helicopters and amphibious landing craft and vehicles, but no fixed wing aircraft.



So :
Chinese Official Media stated their Type 076 LHA will have Fighter jets onboard.

Meanwhile,
Some members have rumour/opinion this Type 076 LHA will be pure an UCAV Carrier.


Seeing condition like this, I will place my bet on Fighter jets onboard Type 076 LHA.
Unless, there is further info from reliable insider like POP3 and Yankeesama.

visitor123 said:

The most valuable and irreplaceable role of a CATOBAR carrier is to launch AWACS - being the eye of the fleet. The rest doesn't matter and can be augmented by more destroyers anyway.

To expect the PLAN to have the unique and probably dominating ability to deploy those eyes effectively everywhere on the cheap instead of having to tow along a 100k+ tonnes nuclear carrier and to not abuse it is absurd in my opinion. It make absolutely no sense.

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Ever thought of future drones doing the AEW role? IMO, the future of AEW is unmanned.

In fact, I tend to think that in the future, Liaoning and Shandong, by then the obsolete pair, will be used to launch drones.

Ever thought of AEW drones that are using the helicopter or tilt rotor concept?

obj 705A said:

If we were to believe those idiots who say the Type 076 won't operate manned fighters such as the J-35 and instead it will operate only drones and helicopters then that means the Type 076 will be a big flop because even though it may be larger than the LHA-8 and have the latest and greatest catapults it still wouldn't be able to operate manned fighters while America's LHA-8 will be able to do so.

So my only question is.. to any potential idiot who thinks the Type 076 won't operate any manned fighters even though it will have catapults and arresting wires, just what kind of high quality pot are you smoking?

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China and US doesn't always choose the same solutions for military technologies. Beijing has never been a big believer in STOVL. Proper fixed wing fighters from an aircraft carrier or land airbase has significant advantages over them.

A stealth drone LHD reinforces a weak link in the Navy's inventory, namely the ability to bombard faraway land targets with high efficiency. It would also be able to carry tanker/EW versions of the drones. The ship would be able to work in concert with large aircraft carriers providing CAP and air defense.

Bltizo said:

Yes, you've basically summed up the overall spirit of my position, geography included.

I don't think 076 is meant to be the primary hard hitter to significantly contribute to the fight for air superiority beyond the first island chain -- that will be done by other ships, aircraft and weapons instead.

By extension, as you correctly mention, my vision and interpretation for what the insiders have described for 076's role inevitably implies that the overall PLA's level of procurement (across air force, navy, and rocket forces) will be somewhat more ambitious than previously considered.

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But let's look at the opportunity cost of a Type-076 primarily configured for amphibious assault versus air/sea control.

By the end of 2030, even with a significant ramp up of large carrier construction, China would realistically only field a maximum of 4 additional large carriers.

But even then, the overall Chinese naval, air and missile force still won't be able to achieve sufficient air superiority over an island in the Second Island Chain, which is a requirement for a successful amphibious assault.

So I think a Type-076 with amphibious assault as its primary mission is 5-10 years ahead of its time.

In comparison, I think a Type-076 which emphasises air/sea control with unmanned drones makes sense now.

There is a new operating paradigm due to the combination of:

1. EMALs which is simple in comparison to steam catapults
2. EM arresting wires, which again is simple in comparison to steam
3. Long-range unmanned combat and ISR carrier-capable drones
4. And in China's case, the geographical advantage of having 200 airbases available in mainland China.

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Say you have Chinese carriers operating at 2000km from the Chinese mainland.
Land-based drones can reach the carriers, and then use the carriers as a base to refuel and rearm.

That extends the reach of the drones to another 1000-2000km.

So large numbers of land-based ISR and combat fighter drones could reach out 3000-4000km into the Western Pacific.

That would drive a carrier requirement that is smaller, cheaper and less high-performance than a carrier designed for Global Power Projection which has to operate independently.

Biscuits said:

Beijing has never been a big believer in STOVL.

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It hardly had necessary capability until very recently, being honest.
This doesn't mean it's out of reach, but involved expenses and risks are considerable.
Furthermore, China has two bad examples standing in Tianjin and Jiangsu to learn from.