Rome vs Han China

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Mightypeon

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Regarding the Parthian Troop Typho: Ups, you got me^^

But dont you think that 1.000 Seems a bit low?



Lets try to clarify some things:

Before a large, all out war with the goal to eradicate the other empire breaks out, initial skirmishes will be boarder conflicts, followed by some town sacking, followed by a real war, followed by both Empires actually beeing at their respective throats.

As I would consider both sides as roughly "even matched", this war would propably not leave the Parthian region. The operational goal staging goal for the Chinese force would propably be to gain a strongpoint in the Mediterran (I assume that reaching Rome with a big army from the east could get troublesome if the Roman fleet is not contained), the goal for the Romans would be to prevent this.

The only "Neutral side" which would directly influence this would be the Parthians, as they happen to be in that region, and would propably side with the defender (Parthians are propably quite happy with the Status Quo)

Germans/Xiognu/Berber-Tribes/Tibetans whatever would only indirectly
influence this conflcit by either hitting the empire next to them or choosing not to do so.

I doubt that these factions would even consider an Alliance with the Empire next to them before the "other Empire" would be a threat to themselves.
This would only happen if "their" Empire is doing pretty badly.
F.E. The Germans would propably give a damn if Rome looses some cities in the Caspian area, the Chinese would at least have to reach the Mediterran, propably even further, to become soemthing like a "perceived" threat.

Although its a different time, the difficulties Flavius Aetius had in building his Anti-Attilla Alliance were not insignifcant, and that was against an enemy at their throats, with a number of athrocities commited and certainly less diplomatic skills than the poltical stuff accompanying a Han expedition would have.

In addition, the repsective Empire would not ally unless they are in a dire situation as transporting a significant amount of Barbarian forces can be quite disastrous to the countryside they are transported through.

Still, are any numbers for the Xiognu/Tibetan forces available? I would be highly interested to see how they would scale up.
 

Anthrophobia

New Member
During this time Tibet was hardly a single country and isn't very powerful in a world scale.

As for the Hxiong Nu, the ShiJi did say that they had up to 90,000 killed in action during Wudi's campaigns against them, so this means they have over 90,000 troops, obviously. Not that the ShiJi specifically said Wudi's campaigns killed 90,000 HxiongNu, but I just added up all the HxiongNu KIA in each battle and it comes up to 90,000.
 

somua

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Hi, I'm a new comer to forum. I was led here by a google search on Han vs Rome. I'm a wargamer using miniature armies and the rules set DBA. I am interested in designing a miniatures battle using two Han Chinese armies plus one Parthian Chinese allied army vs two early Imperial Roman armies and a Roman allied Armenian army. Any suggestions on hypathetical events leading up to or location for a battle like this? Thanks!
 

IDonT

Senior Member
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Hi, I'm a new comer to forum. I was led here by a google search on Han vs Rome. I'm a wargamer using miniature armies and the rules set DBA. I am interested in designing a miniatures battle using two Han Chinese armies plus one Parthian Chinese allied army vs two early Imperial Roman armies and a Roman allied Armenian army. Any suggestions on hypathetical events leading up to or location for a battle like this? Thanks!


here ya go
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Ban Chao became Protector General (都護; Duhu) in 91 CE, and was based at Kucha. In 97 CE, Ban Chao crossed the Tian Shan and Pamir mountains with an army of 70,000 men in a campaign against the Xiongnu (Huns). He went as far west as the Caspian Sea and the region of Ukraine, reaching the territory of Parthia, upon which event he reportedly also sent an envoy named Gan Ying to Daqin (Rome). Gan Ying left a detailed account of western countries, although he probably only reached the Black Sea before turning back.

The Chinese army made an alliance with the Parthians and established some forts at a distance of a few days march from the Parthian capital Ctesiphon, and were to hold the region for several years. In 116 CE, the Roman Emperor Trajan advanced into Parthia to Ctesiphon and came within one day's march of the Chinese border garrisons, but direct contacts apparently never took place. Some time later however, the first of several Roman embassies to China is recorded in Chinese sources, coming from the sea route in 166 CE, and a second one in 284 CE.

Ban Chao was created the Marquess of Dingyuan (定遠侯, i.e., "the Marquess who stabilized faraway places") for his services to the Empire and returned to the capital Loyang at the age of 70 years old, and before long died there in 102 CE. Following his death, the power of the Xiongnu in Western Territory increased again, and the Chinese were never again able to reach so far to the west.

According to a Chinese saying Ban Chao was one of the most prominent actors in the expansion of China to the west, on a level with Zhang Qian:

"In the time of the Western Han there was Zhang Qian,
In the Eastern Han there was Ban Chao."
 

silverster

New Member
back to topic.

Althrough Roman Legions are extremely hardy infantry (in fact, the best broad-swordman in the ancient world). It's weakness lays in the total lack of mass missle troops and cavalry.

Chinese Infantry would stand no chance sword to sword againest the romans.

But they do not need to win from the front.

the crossbow would really slow down roman advancement. One army cannot advance through mass arrow fire.

Whent he Romans are weared out or weared down, if they still do not withdraw, advance the mass infantry, take the damage by the pilum, engage them in hand to hand combat, hold the roman line then use chinese heavy cavalry to flank them.

Chinese Cavalry would be the best in the world because of one thing:- Stirrup, they invented them.
 

somua

Just Hatched
Registered Member
IdonT, Thanks for the information! It was very helpful.
The Imperial Roman army that seems most likely to confront the Han is a different animal than the monolithic, heavy infantry army of earlier times. It would be composed of heavy infantry, but equal numbers of lighter, more flexible auxilliary infantry. It would also have a higher proportion of cavalry than earlier armies. It could have it's own bow contingent (though not as numerous as the Han) and skirmish troops. Also it would have it's own artillery consisting of ballistas and catapults. It was a Swiss army knife designed to deal with the many, varied enemies of Rome.
The Han army is solid consisting of some heavy infantry, a lot of bow troops, light and heavy cavalry. It too has dealt with many different oponents. It's main enemies seems to have been light horse armies. I think this would make the Han a fast, flexible army. Either army could win depending on the plans, leadership, best use of troops and the ground. Speed and flexibility to the Han, raw power to the Romans. The Romans need to pin and batter the Han. The Han need to use skill, finesse and mobility.
 

Inst

Captain
Rome would beat China because it was a democracy. :p

(Sorry, couldn't resist, and yes, don't bother correcting me about the resultant Roman Empire)
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Either army could win depending on the plans, leadership, best use of troops and the ground. Speed and flexibility to the Han, raw power to the Romans. The Romans need to pin and batter the Han. The Han need to use skill, finesse and mobility.
Romans were set in their ways and very orthodox. 3 legions, 3 cavalry units and six auxiliary regiments - some 25,000 men were wiped out by Germanic tribesmen in the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest.
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The Chinese even had REPEATING CROSSBOW (developed to fight the Huns and discussed earlier here); and were more flexible by using Taoist derived methods to achieve victory. I think that the Chinese would have won had a war occured between the two.
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How about Han vs Persia/Parthia?
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silverster

New Member
Romans were set in their ways and very orthodox. 3 legions, 3 cavalry units and six auxiliary regiments - some 25,000 men were wiped out by Germanic tribesmen in the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest.
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The Chinese even had REPEATING CROSSBOW (developed to fight the Huns and discussed earlier here); and were more flexible by using Taoist derived methods to achieve victory. I think that the Chinese would have won had a war occured between the two.
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How about Han vs Persia/Parthia?
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I Highly doubt the CHU-KO-NU's (repeating Crossbow) will have any effect on the Scutum (the shield), not to mention the Lorica Segmentata (plate armor)...

the origional CHU-KU-NU's had problems with it's penetrating power.. againest chinese Armor, so i wouldnt count on it being the decisive weapon againest well armored legions. but it would sure distract the formation with such velocity of arrows.

now the battle of teutoburg, first, it's not a battle, it's an ambush.
and the leader of the Legions is a Lawyer/Politian, not a General.
 
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