Rome vs Han China

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mightypeon

Junior Member
VIP Professional
erico said:
The Fact that the Chinese are shorter today means nothing 2000 years ago.

I can tell you that back then the average Chinese soldier was 1.78m or 5'10 and the average Roman soldier was 1.67 or 5'6 ft. Therefore, the reverse would be true and the Chinese would hold the psycological advantage of height.

If the Romans and the Chinese were geographically closer perhaps even neighbors, I would place my bet on the Chinese defeating the Romans.

Please name your sources.
Some examples for soucres which STRONGLY incline that the Romans where a tad bigger:

A: The diplomatical expedition of Gan Ying, which was during this exact time.
To Quote: "As for the king, he is not a permanent figure but is chosen as the man most worthy… The people in this country are tall and regularly featured. They resemble the Chinese, and that is why the country is called Da Qin (The "Great" Qin)… The soil produced lots of gold, silver and rare jewels, including the jewel which shines at night… they sew embroidered tissues with gold threads to form tapestries and damask of many colours, and make a gold-painted cloth, and a "cloth washed-in-the-fire" (asbestos). (Hou Hanshu, cited in Leslie and Gardiner)."

Link:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


B: Persian sources from the Crusades time quoting things like:
"The Barbarians (Christians) came in great numbers and where taller than us our the eastern people"
I sadly dont have a link for that stuff.

C: The Mongols also happened to be smaller than everyone in the west (which got a bit nasty in situations where the Europeans got them into mellee engangements, did not help as the European leaders where too incompetent).

What proof, apart from the Terrakottaarmy (which are man made statues, statues tend to be quite a bit higher than the orignal person was, + these statues resembled the imperial guard. Bones would be a much more valid proof) exists for the hypotheses that ancient Chinese where anywhere around 1.70?
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Height, in my opinion, does not have that great impact on fighting ability. Otherwise, the 5'5" Romans would have never conquered the 6 foot Gauls.
 

mindreader

New Member
Mightypeon said:
Please name your sources.
Some examples for soucres which STRONGLY incline that the Romans where a tad bigger:

A: The diplomatical expedition of Gan Ying, which was during this exact time.
To Quote: "As for the king, he is not a permanent figure but is chosen as the man most worthy… The people in this country are tall and regularly featured. They resemble the Chinese, and that is why the country is called Da Qin (The "Great" Qin)… The soil produced lots of gold, silver and rare jewels, including the jewel which shines at night… they sew embroidered tissues with gold threads to form tapestries and damask of many colours, and make a gold-painted cloth, and a "cloth washed-in-the-fire" (asbestos). (Hou Hanshu, cited in Leslie and Gardiner)."

Link:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


B: Persian sources from the Crusades time quoting things like:
"The Barbarians (Christians) came in great numbers and where taller than us our the eastern people"
I sadly dont have a link for that stuff.

C: The Mongols also happened to be smaller than everyone in the west (which got a bit nasty in situations where the Europeans got them into mellee engangements, did not help as the European leaders where too incompetent).

What proof, apart from the Terrakottaarmy (which are man made statues, statues tend to be quite a bit higher than the orignal person was, + these statues resembled the imperial guard. Bones would be a much more valid proof) exists for the hypotheses that ancient Chinese where anywhere around 1.70?

What the hell are you talking about?

Your first source proves nothing. If anything, the quote "they resemble us" implicates that the Chinese are as tall, if not taller. Not to mention, if I want to use obscure anecdotal evidence provided by unknown figures (Leslie and Gardiner) to prove the Chinese are taller, I would have plenty of evidence to do so.

And what does the Persian quote has to do with anything (aside from the fact that you can't find the source)? Persians are thousands of miles away from China and are not neighbours their term "eastern" people are in complete context to what we today would refer as eastern people. Persians themselves are eastern compared to the Europeans. Not to mention the fact that male soldiers which the Persians saw during the Crusades would distort the average height upwards as men are generally taller, and usually only the biggest makes it to the armies.

The Mongolians would also fit into this argument how? The Monglians WERE smaller than ethnic Hans and they are STILL smaller today. The average Mongolian male today is 161.5 cm and 66.7 kg; 156.7 cm and 57.6 kg for women. That is not only smaller than the Chinese, that is helluva lot smaller. I think people see a couple of Mongolian wrestlers and somehow think their whole population is taller.

The fact they got into problems in meelee battles were expected. They NEVER were professionally trained to engage in meelee battles. China has no horses and imports them from the Asian steppes. This meant that when the wars started, the Song Dynasty armies returned to the old infantry based tactics. The Mongolian horse archers took full advantage of the Song's immobility. However, if the Song did manage to chase down a Mongolian army, it's a massacre. Yet despite this advantage, the Mongolians were able to do jack until they learnt Chinese siege technology and fire arms. And this is the incompetent Song armies we are talking about instead of the highly trained Han armies.

Your rants on how the Mongolians had troubles in meelee is about as useful as my ass to Richard Gere's acting, as the Mongolians are terrible in this aspect anywhere.
 

Mightypeon

Junior Member
VIP Professional
The awnser why the Romans defeated the Gauls is the same awnser for why the Romans did not the defeat the Germans, basicaly leadership.
Both Caesar and Arminius where significantly smarter and/or in better control of their forces than their opponents were and thus they won.
Of course, the better training and the use of superior weaponry, armour and existing tactical level formations are also factors, but beeing Bigger helps.





For me, it is extremly diffcult to elavuate who had the better tactical formations, who had the better weaponry/armour (I know that Chinese top class weapons where better than their roman counterparts, but how many of their troopers acutally had them?).
Objectivly elevating things like Logistics is also extremly difficult, even more cranky is the diplomatical/politcal situation. Around 0 BC, Up to 40% of Romes force where busy in Germania. I do not know how "annoying" the Viet/Xiognu whatever tribes on the Chinese borders where, but they would certainly be a factor in an actual war.
Every single one of these points would propably have a bigger impact than height, but, at least to me, every single one of these factors would be even more uncertain.


So I hope that everyone can agree that The Size of a Warrior has a positive effect in a mellee battle.


Lets get to the second point, showing or indicating that the Romans (not really the Romans, I was talking about their auxillarys when I brought the matter up) are propably bigger than the Han Chinese.

Lets start with a general essay how the size of someone is defined.
The Genes define the Size of a given person. Size is an extreme example for Polygeny, literal hundres of Genes are directly involved, propably around 10.000 indirectly (f.e. if you have a genetic nutrition difciency, you size can be modified because you need more to eat)

They can be modfied by Mutation or, more likely, recombination with an other Genome. The Genes do not say how big said individual person will be, they say how big he will be if he has enough to eat.

The correlation of eating and Size is not a mutation but a modification, this means that although the person looks different, his Genome stay the same.

This means, a genetically big person who is small because of Malnutrition could give birth to a kid, that, given decent nutrition, would easily outgrow him. Because this can occur on a very sudden basis and for a broad spectrum of persons, modification are usually easily appearant and do, in general, not have a big effect on the "perceived" size of an entire nation.

This is the most basic fact.

However, this model would not explain why people all over the world are getting bigger.
Here our good friend Darwin comes into play.
Because of facts like beeing Stronger, sometimes faster and more attractive to the other gender(the propably most important factor), bigger persons usually enjoy the benefits of natural selection compared to smaller ones. Given enough food, the Big Guys will reproduce more rapidly, leading to more "Big Guy" Genomes leading to more Big Guys and so on.
The speed of this varies with the nutrition. Nothing to eat does favour smaller persons, however, a very long period of "nothing to eat" (1) has to happen to have any traceable effect on the Genome of a Bigger population.

Therefor, the average size usually goes up if there is enough to eat, or stops/declines slowly if that is not the case.

As very long nothing to eat periods are a) rare and b) occured in both Europe and China, we could propably await a similiar speed of "growing".
This would mean that todays height differences would propably also be present (though propably in a slightly different quantity) in the past.

Although China had some times of extreme poverty, so did Europe (30 Years war beeing one the few examples for the afromentioned nothing to eat period).

As it is, apart from mass Migration and a really big number of inter ethnic marriages(which is a strong point though, the (assumable small) Mongols never settled in Europe like they did in China), I see no reason why the growth curve for China should be any different from the growth curve for Europe.

Assuming a similiar development of the Sizes, Scenarios in which Han-Time Europeans would be bigger than Han-Time Chinese would be indicated.

Just to sum up my Theses:
1: Size matters in a combat engagement as, of course, do the armament, the available formations the training and a bunch of other factors.

I feel that a discussion about this topic has a place in a military history forum.

2: Han-Time Chinese were propably smaller than Han-Time Roman Auxillarys.
This is based on the fact that this is the case today, in addition to the point that size changes usually happen at the same speed (outlined above).

Because I feel that detailed discussions about population Genetics do not belong to a Forum named Chinese Military history, I would ask persons who disagree with me of the second Thesis to PM me.
 

Anthrophobia

New Member
Evolution don't happen that fast. If you noticed people in the jacked-up countries aren't getting any bigger. In fact only the rising countries and the rich countries have people that are getting bigger, due to better nutrition. As a result their children will get taller as well, due to the better nutrition the pregnant mothers can provide.

Is it just me or is this devolving into the white race can kick Asian race butt because they are genetically taller? tsk tsk tsk. Running out of arguments and resolving to this.
 

Mightypeon

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Exactly why does stating the facts that a) Bigger Persons have advantadges in a mellee and b) Some people are bigger than others while also mentioning that beeing small also has its virtues (f.e. if there is not enough to eat) turn me into a racist that is running out of arguments?
I have also explained why I brought up this issue, although shaky, the information about it may be more certain/ less speculative than informations regarding other, quite more important points.

Does stating the fact that a Black Person have an advantadge in UV-intensive regions also turn me into a racist?

By the way, Human evolution is subject to an unusaually high number of "founder effects" + a lot of cultural selection, (which, regarding height, is usually disruptive, meaning that an extremum is favoured) which significantly modifies the speed with which a population genome can change.

Can we please leave it at this before this deteriorates into a complete flame war?
 

Anthrophobia

New Member
^Because stating differences does not make one into a racist, but stating that difference somehow makes one person superior to the other does. As for being smaller = needing less food, what the heck? Last time I remember you saying that better logistics is difficult to calculate? But somehow you mention height as a factor, when leaving the former out? I say stick to technology, government, and economy.
 

Mightypeon

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Well, instead of bickering about racism we might as well do something usefull.
What about adding up the numbers/military strength of other opponents both sides may have.
I am pretty sure that the Chinese would try to get the Parthians directly in their boat, and Berber or Germanic Barbarians would definitly use their chance plunder roman provinces in their vicinity.
In the same light, its kinda doubtfull that remaining Xiognu/Viet/Tibetan whatsorever (my knowledge of Chinese history is a bit to shaky to know which Barbarians where a problem at which time) tribes leave out a possibilty to plunder while the Han are occupied.

German Barbarians:
The Strength in the Teutonburg Forest Battle is currently estimated as between 10.000-20.000, maybe less.
This was the force onder Arminius, Marbods number, another Warlord who did not participate in Teutonenburg, can only be guessed indirectly.
During 6 AC, 12 Roman Legions where ready to go against him. They did not because the Illyrian insurrection broke out.
As 12 Legions are quite a lot (some 100.000 Troops total, which would be complete overkill against a meager force of 10.000-20.000) one could assume that Marod could bring up some 50.000 for defensive actions (Romans always tried to get a 2on1 superiority if they could plan their attacks).

The Romans claim that Arminius and Marod battled against each other with 60.000 on each side, however these number are propably to high.

This would make some 60.000-70.000 in total.
Please note that the Numbers the German Barbs could bring up vary greatly in History, in addition, Roman historicans had, like every other ancient historican, a tendency to let their enemys appear greater and bigger than they acutally where.
The above numbers represent semi reliable data from the period 0-20AC.

Parthians: The Parthians were able to field some 10.000 well equipped and trained Cataphracts against Crassus.
One might expect them to do the same in such an occasion.

Berbers:
Its sad to say, but I have absolutley no idea about the numbers a semi nomadic tribe-coaltition could potentially muster.
I would think it is in the realms of 10.000-20.000.

Thefore Rome would be up against:
The Han
Some 70.000 Germans
Some 10.000 Parthians
Some 20.000 Berbers.

If someone may research the numbers of the Xiognu/Tibetans/whoever could threaten a distracted Han China we may be acutaly getting somewhere.
 

PeoplesPoster

Junior Member
For your 10,000 Parthian number, if it is infact 10,000 cataphracts which were the elite troops, than the Parthians must have been able to mount a significantly greater number of supportings troops.
 
Last edited:

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
PeoplesPoster said:
For your 10,000 Parthian number, if it is infact 10,000 cataphracts which were the elite troops, than the Parthians must have been able to mount a significantly greater number of supportings troops.

Parthian Empire was feudal. The King grants lands to nobleman in return for military service. The army that Crassus actually faced was that of Surena, a Parthian noble whose clan had the honor of crowning the King. According to Plutarch the Parthian army consisted of 1,000 Cataphracts and 9,000 horse archers not 10,000 cataphracts. A straight charge against a disciplined forced that outnumbers you 4 to 1 will be crushed.

That was Parthia's weakness, the King relied on his vassals for military power. That is one of the primary reasons why Parthian could not go further east after the capture of Babylon and took advantage of the Roman Civil War during 50 to 40's BC. That, and the fact that they suck at seiging.

To Mighty Peon:
Thank you for steering this thread to a more relevant topic.

A Chinese Army going West would be seen as an invasion force. Parthia and the Germans would ally with Rome.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top