Rome vs Han China

Well-trained army could still get horroried when they meet unknown things. When Alexander's soldiers confronted Indian elephants,they feared,when Europeans met Mongol cavalries and weapons to siege,they got horrified,when American Indians warriors saw the Whites' horses and guns, they were terrified,when two A-bombs exploded,all the Japanese afraided.What about you when you found two strange creatures from an unknown planet having their picnic in your garden??Romans had never seen such powerful weapons(the crossbows) and such strong and fastmoving cavalries(stirrup was invented by Chinese) of Han Dynasty before they first met them,if hundreds of thousands of arrows are darting to them and followed are the thousands of fast-moving Han's cavalries with long spears and swords, I think withdraw becomes the best choice for the Romans

I think the crossbow is qualified to be called as "machine gun" in that period, with which Han's solidiers could easily kill lots of lots of Romans without losing any units.No romans could survive if they don't fall back when they confront the Chinese archers.Don't forget how the Polish cavalries were destroyed by the German tanks in WWⅡ. An advanced equipment to great extent can guarantee an army to win a war(Certainly a good tactics is quite important too).eg: Mongol horse in 13th centrury, guns and cannons in the wars between Whites and American Indians,atomic bomb in WW2...

An advanced weapon not only simply means a superiority in military affairs but also symbolizes a more powerful industry,a more advanced technology and a much superior productivity of a nation, that all together are indispensable for a nation to win a war.

Now I am talking about the battle effectiveness of both sides,not the strategy or tactics(Undoubtedly an army well armed without any tactics will be defeated,but we should also realized that an army without any weapons will still be destroyed easily even it has very very superior strategy,such as no clever infant whatsoever can defeat an adult ).Let 's focus on the issue that which would win if one Roman army confronts one Han's army. Evenif taking tactics and technology and other factors into account,in my opinion,Han will still win,for Han has "Sun Zi bing fa"which stand for superior strategies,crossbow,the most powerful cavalry,a large population ,a stable situation,great Gen. Huo Qubing, Wei Qing ,Li Guang and numerious soldiers,etc.

.士兵的数量：
中国拥有当时世界上人数最多的部队，战争时期可以动员至少一百万的军队。另外中国有世界上最强大的后

勤补给。这一点是最重要的。而不是靠无耻的掠夺。

罗马鼎盛时期也不过20多万的军队，而且罗马军队分散，调度上会有一些麻烦。

如果汉朝在某些方面的装备落后，可以以强大的兵力和灵巧的战术弥补。

2，军队的装备，以及两国的科技
毫无疑问，罗马步兵几乎是当时世界上最强的。汉朝步兵还主要是轻装步兵。罗马方阵威力也是非常巨大的


弓箭以及远程武器方面，从秦朝开始，中国就拥有了另匈奴和西方恐惧的超级弓弩。以及弩车等等。中国的弩

兵是用脚装填的，威力比西方的大，射程也远。因为他的内部结构很科学。我曾经看过内部结构的分析。

3，后勤方面
不用说。这一点肯定中国胜。

4，骑兵
中国的骑兵可以与匈奴匹敌，而且战胜了匈奴。弓骑兵也在战争中发挥了巨大的威力。曾经汉朝的5万骑兵击败

了 匈奴的20万骑兵。我想大家也不会陌生。

5，战术
我举个例子，关于中国汉朝步兵。李陵（汉朝的一个将军）率领的5000步兵被匈奴的300000人的骑兵和步兵包

围，但他们把粮草马匹作为掩体，战斗了很长时间。杀了几万匈奴士兵。


所以，汉朝在当时是世界上最强大的。



英文在楼上的楼上

1.The soldier's quantity :
China had most a lot of armies of the number of people in the world at that time,it could

mobilize and amount to the army of 1 million at least in wartime.

There is the strongest logistic supply in the world in China in addition. This is the most

important. But not by the robing of shamelessness.

Rome's great prosperity period is only more than 200,000 armies, and the army of Rome is

scattered, the dispatcher has some trouble.

If the equipment backwardness in some aspects of Han Dynasty, could remedy with the strong troops

and dexterous tactics.


2, the equipment of the army, and the science and technology of two countries is undoubted, the

infantry of Rome was nearly the strongest in the world at that time.

The infantry was still mainly light infantry in Han Dynasty. Rome's square matrix might is very

enormous too. Bow and arrow and long-range weapon respect, since Qin Dynasty, China has had

another huns and frightened super bow crossbow of the west.

And the crossbow car,etc.. The crossbow pawn of China is loaded with the foot, the might is

larger than the western one, the range is far too. Very scientific because of his inside

structure. I once saw the analysis of the inside structure.

3, logistic respect Much less. This affirms China wins.


4, cavalryman The cavalryman of China can be equal to Xiongnu , and has won over huns . Bend the

cavalryman and give play to the enormous might during the war too. Once 50,000 cavalrymans in Han

Dynasty defeated 200,000 cavalrymans of Xiongnu . I do not think everybody can be strange either.



5, tactics I give an example, about the infantry in Han Dynasty of China.
Ling (one general of

Han Dynasty ) Li 5000 infantry that lead surround 300000 cavalryman and infantry of people of

Xiongnu, but they regard army provisions horses as the blindage, have for a long timed. Have

killed several ten thousand soldiers of Xiongnu .


So, Han Dynasty was in the strongest in the world at that time.

T-U-P said:

why would all those groups be allies with Han? it'll more likely to be free-for-all rather than allies.

anyone know what kind of formations would the Han use?

Click to expand...

Here are some basic Warring States Chinese formations from Sun Bin's military manual that I recently read about:

The Wu - five-man squad in line astern.

The Dui - 10 Wu in line abreast (5 men deep and 10 across) 50 men

The Bo - Two Dui in line abreast (5 men deep and 20 across) or line astern (a square 10 men deep and 10 across) 100 men

The Qu - Two Bo in line abreast (5 men deep and 40 across) or line astern (20 men deep and 10 across) 200 men

The Lu - 500 men

The Jun - 12500 men


The Square - made up of several rows of Qu, with the HQ in the middle of the rear row. Not necessarily a true square, can be rectangular. A favourite tactic was to place stronger Qu on the flanks, and then lure the enemy to attack the centre and be outflanked.

The Circle - a Qu reformed into a ring, with the HQ protected within it. A highly defensive formation.

Dispersed Formation - increasing the distance between individual Qu in a square, so as to mislead the enemy or divide his forces.

Close Formation - decreasing the distance between individual Qu in a square, for strength in close-quarter fighting.

The Awl (zhui)- A wedge (triangle with one point facing forward), a highly offensive formation. Also known in later history as the Male Formation (pin)(you'll see why later).

The Wild-Goose-Flight Formation - A V-formation with two wings for enveloping the enemy and the HQ in the middle. Or an inverted-V for a defensive formation that can quickly be converted to offensive wedge. The V-formation can also be modified into a flattened U known as the Basket Formation or Female Formation, for luring enemy wedges into the centre and then enveloping them.

The Hook Formation - A line abreast with the two ends sloping inwards to avoid being flanked. Probably most suitable for archers or crossbowmen.

Very intersting!!!!

Do you know what units are in that formation...all I can make out are chariots.

IDonT said:

Very intersting!!!!

Do you know what units are in that formation...all I can make out are chariots.

Click to expand...

probably all the normal ones. according to the picture, i see a lot of infantries (maybe some of them are archers). btw why are the chariots inside a group of infantries? the chariots are suppose to run fast and either charge into the enemy with lots of momentum, or do some "drive-by" and try to kill the general. been in the middle of the crowd limits their special ability (their speed).

I think originally ancient Chinese armies may have at one time used chariots as shock weapons. But towards the end of the Warring States period, I believe cavalry may have replaced the chariot. The chariot may have mostly been used for a high platform for field commanders to direct there troops from.

I also read some, though sorry I don't have the source, that they used chariots as barriers lining them up to make a wall or fence. Not so unlike wagon trains during the old west.

Han chariots are armed with poles with pointy tips at each end on the back of the chariot used to crush enemies.

---

Any 1 watched a historical show called "Han Wu Da De?" It is about the emperor Han Wu De of Han China. He is a dictator, a cruel emperor but he led China well. He defeated the nomadic tribe called "Xong Lu." The show is historical accurate. I am not sure if Xong Lu are the Huns.

---

I looked on wikipedia. And looked at Han China's history. It said "It is fair enough to state that contemporary empires of the Han Dynasty and the Roman Empire were the two superpowers of the known world."

But whose stronger? I don't think any 1 will prevail. Rome has ingenious battle formations and discipline legions. Legions armour are small plates link together. But not like Chinese ones. Roman Auxiliaries (how you spell it?) and soldiers other than legions, and praetorians are armoured with chain mail. The Roman legions are equipt with tall rectangular shields, when men are together. They can hold against mounted troops.

Let say that the Chinese have metal helmets, plate armours and scale armours. The Chinese also have a huge population in its military. When Han China fights the Xong Lu, the Hans used crossbows. And another kind of crossbow, capable of firing up to hundreds of bolts. This kind of crossbow is enlarged and stationed. It's called "Cho Ku Nu". The other crossbow "Nu" is lighter and is carried by archers and crossbowmen. On books, it says that a Nu can shoot up to 300 metres of disitance and 310 metres of height. It can panetrate a wooden shield or metal plate breastplates and armours.

---

On other forums I visited and looked at. There are threads called "Roman versus Han China." It was intresting and I checked it out. It said that Han China defeated the Huns and the Huns mysteriously got to the west and defeated the Romans with help from other victims of Roman invasion of course. <- Is that true?

I would say is a good encyclopedia. And its free.

Liberator said:

Any 1 watched a historical show called "Han Wu Da De?" It is about the emperor Han Wu De of Han China.

Click to expand...

yes, i know that show, a bit boring tho.

He defeated the nomadic tribe called "Xong Lu." The show is historical accurate. I am not sure if Xong Lu are the Huns.

Click to expand...

they're called xiong nu in chinese (just to fix the pingyin), and are generally believed to be the Huns although there're no hard hard evidence.

I would say

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

is a good encyclopedia. And its free.

Click to expand...

yes, it's good for general knowledge, but a reliable source for quoting, or essays? not really, because just about everyone can edit it.

Han China Vs Rome
It depends on where they are gonna fight. If the war is gonna be in China. Then, the Han army would definitely crush those Romeos. But if the Han army invades the Roman Empire. Then, i won't be so sure about it. The Han dynasty had a lot more troop but they can't move this many troops to a faraway land and be able to supply them.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

However, as proven in the Battle of Canae (aka the battle where Hanibal slaughtered 60,000 Romans), Roman legionaires had a weakness to cavalry. The Han had very strong cavalry, similiar to the Hunnish cavalry that defeated the Legions in the 5th century AD.

Click to expand...

Han did have the world's earliest calvalry but it's not really the best cavalry compared to the Xiongnu calvalry. Chinese are not good horde-rider but instead focuses on infantry. The discussion of Chinese foot soldiers wearing light armor is not true. It's only true in movies. Our armor is almost designed the same way Romans designed theirs. You see it in movies because the film makers want to make the generals stand out.

No double post.

ERGH. I had a big, long, informative post on why the Han Dynasty would win, and then a stupid MSN hotkey ruins it. CURSE YOU, MSN!

Anyways, to simply my last post, let me just bring in the most important point of why the Han Dynasty would win.

Let's all shut our eyes, and picture an epic battle that would be much too large to really take place, but would be awesome if it did. In this battle, we have Rome and her 500,000 troops total, and the Han Dynasty and it's 2 million men, possibly more. Now, in the Han army, we have the crossbow, which, as someone said, is comparable to the modern machine gun or assault rifle. Let's assume, just to make things a whole helluva lot easier, that the Han army is equally divided into ranged, infantry, and cavalry. In this scenario, that means there're about 650,000 infantry, 650,000 ranged units, and 650,000 cavalry. Lets say half of the ranged units, or 325,000 of them, are the single-shot, armor piercing crossbow. From what we've learned on this thread, the crossbowmen would work in three rows. The first row fires while the rear and middle rows reload and prepare to fire. Then the second row comes forward and fires while the first row goes to the rear, and the rear row goes to the middle. Okay, we've got that down, so now here's where the fun begins...

First, let's split 325,000 men into three equal (or somewhat equal) rows. That means there'd be 108,000 men per row (if it were exactly 325,000 men total, then each row would have 108,333 men exactly.)

Now, 108,000 men fire off 108,000 arrows. Let's say that only a 4th of those arrows land fatal hits. Well, kiddies, looks like Rome just suffered 24,000 casualties. Since that's ridiculously high, let's say that only a sixth of the arrows land fatal blows. Okay, that still means 18,000 Romes just bit the bullet. Hell, let's say A TENTH of the arrows deal lethal damage to the Roman soldiers. That is still 10,000 men. Whatever way you look at it, the next minute of warfare is going to be quite unpleasant for the Romans. This one row over the next minute will land 7 volleys, give or take. Even if it's only 5 volleys, that row will kill some 50,000 Romans, should only a tenth of the arrows prove deadly. That means, altogether, if each row only gets five volleys off before the two sides have to engage in actual hand-to-hand combat, the Romans are going to suffer a loss of some 150,000 men. Now, going by the "equal troop types" assumption, the Han Dynasty has some 650,000 cavalry that's just *waiting* to trample the Roman infantry... do I even need to continue writing? Oh, and this is ignoring the other 325,000 archers who're using weaker semi-automatic crossbows. Okay, just as a really rough esimate, by the time Rome enters into hand-to-hand combat, the casualties she's suffered falls just shy of half of her army. From a soldier standpoint, even if you're a professional, seeing your army get slaughtered by hundreds of thousands of arrows on an almost "every second you march forward" basis, you're obviously *freaked out* at this point. I guess what I'm saying is, the morale of the Roman army isn't all that high right now. The soldiers wouldn't be too amused with the thought of fighting an enemy that's already wiped out half of their army without even losing one of their own soldiers. Now the Romans are nearing the enemy's infantry line, and the general's all excited. He's all "Yes! Now we get to engage in our forte fighting style!" However, this thought is cut short by a most discouraging thunderous noise. It isn't lightning thunder... it isn't an earthquake... nope... not a rockslide, either. No, it's those 650,000 cavalrymen who, in the time it took for the Roman legions to be slaughtered by the crossbomen, have moved to flank them. At this point, the Roman general dismounts, bends over, puts his head between his legs, and kisses his *** goodbye.

Thanks, been fun. I've enjoyed reading the thread, and I hope to see some replies. I know my little 'possible engagement' story isn't 100% accurate as to what the Roman's are capable off. Obviously, in real life, they'd have fought with the Han Dynasty in a few skirmishes and wouldn't be dumb enough to do what I said they would do. Since it'd have been impossible for either side to maintain a war of such magnitude for any length of time, my scenario was a simple "if both met on the field of battle with all of their military might without any knowledge of each other whatsoever" sort of deal. However, this sceanrio, though it might be a little far-fetched, proves how vulnerable Rome's armies would be to the devastating Chinese crossbow.