ROCAF record

cabbageman

New Member
F-86 did shoot down MiGs during Korean War, both Soviet and PLA admitted it. PLAAF had more than 1000 MiG-15s in the 1950s. 17 J-5s were produced in 1956, 142 J-5s in 1957, and 429 J-5s in 1958. Even if we use the inflated ROCAF record, 31 is not bigger than 500. PLA doesn’t have honest tradition either, propaganda and PSYOP are PLA’s forte. That would be pot calling kettle black.

Accuracy of ballistic missile does matter. If you can’t hit it, you can’t destroy it.

Iraq had about 50 airbases, and 24 of them are the main ones. Coalition expected JP233 submunitions would paralyze the airbases for a day, but sometimes they were repaired in 4-6 hours. A week after Desert Storm began, coalition were still attacking them (more than 3000 sorties against airfields in Desert Storm). Coalition fighters still engaged some Iraqi fighters, and more than 100 Iraqi fighters fled to Iran. In other words, Coalition did not really kill Iraq sortie rate generation, but won by Iraqi refusal to fight. From Desert Storm perspective, anything that achieved tactical objective is good enough. But you cannot assume the same will happen in other wars. Taiwan is much smaller than Iraq and has about 30 airbases, of which about 10 are the main ones. PLAAF could also attack differently from the Desert Storm Parallel War/Strategic bombing style, and concentrate purely on SEAD and airbase attacks. On the other hand: 1. ROCAF’s air defense system is better than Iraq’s KARI. 2. PLAAF is not superior to Coalition in Desert Storm.

Ballistic/Cruise missile and PLAAF is a very formidable combination. However that doesn’t mean you could assume whatever the hell you want. Airbase attack and SEAD aren’t that easy.

PLA’s ballistic missiles could reach Taiwan in 5-8 minutes, depending on missile type and launch location/target position. Right now Taiwan has very limited early warning capability, even though US shares some DSP information with some delay. Currently Taiwan is acquiring PAVE PAW, which will detect Ballistic missile during boost stage. TK-2’s Chang-Bai is also being modified along with the TK ATBM system.

In general, ballistic missile detection is complex. For long-range missiles, DSP and satellite is the best way. US DSP and space detection are very good at it. For short-range missiles, long-range early warning radar is relatively better. During Operation Iraqi Freedom, US used AEGIS along with DSP. The result was somewhat favorable, given Iraqi missiles were extremely short ranged. Ultimately, the effectiveness of radar depends on level of technology. Not everyone has technology comparable to US.
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
One point you have to consider is that the ROCAF will never have to alert Taiwan to their intentions until the missiles get fired. China can get close to the middle line of control and all their weapon will be well in range. Taiwan won't know what China's done until then.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
Vlad Plasmius said:
One point you have to consider is that China will never have to alert Taiwan to their intentions until the missiles get fired. China can get close to the middle line of control and all their weapon will be well in range. Taiwan won't know what China's done until then.

A good point. Which is also why I keep emphasizing the need for Taiwan to strengthen facilities and runways in case of a ballistic missile attack, as opposed to blowing it all on a bunch of pathetic submarines that won't go into service until it's too late.
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
cabbageman said:
F-86 did shoot down MiGs during Korean War, both Soviet and PLA admitted it. PLAAF had more than 1000 MiG-15s in the 1950s. 17 J-5s were produced in 1956, 142 J-5s in 1957, and 429 J-5s in 1958. Even if we use the inflated ROCAF record, 31 is not bigger than 500. PLA doesn’t have honest tradition either, propaganda and PSYOP are PLA’s forte. That would be pot calling kettle black.

Accuracy of ballistic missile does matter. If you can’t hit it, you can’t destroy it.

Iraq had about 50 airbases, and 24 of them are the main ones. Coalition expected JP233 submunitions would paralyze the airbases for a day, but sometimes they were repaired in 4-6 hours. A week after Desert Storm began, coalition were still attacking them (more than 3000 sorties against airfields in Desert Storm). Coalition fighters still engaged some Iraqi fighters, and more than 100 Iraqi fighters fled to Iran. In other words, Coalition did not really kill Iraq sortie rate generation, but won by Iraqi refusal to fight. From Desert Storm perspective, anything that achieved tactical objective is good enough. But you cannot assume the same will happen in other wars. Taiwan is much smaller than Iraq and has about 30 airbases, of which about 10 are the main ones. PLAAF could also attack differently from the Desert Storm Parallel War/Strategic bombing style, and concentrate purely on SEAD and airbase attacks. On the other hand: 1. ROCAF’s air defense system is better than Iraq’s KARI. 2. PLAAF is not superior to Coalition in Desert Storm.

Ballistic/Cruise missile and PLAAF is a very formidable combination. However that doesn’t mean you could assume whatever the hell you want. Airbase attack and SEAD aren’t that easy.

PLA’s ballistic missiles could reach Taiwan in 5-8 minutes, depending on missile type and launch location/target position. Right now Taiwan has very limited early warning capability, even though US shares some DSP information with some delay. Currently Taiwan is acquiring PAVE PAW, which will detect Ballistic missile during boost stage. TK-2’s Chang-Bai is also being modified along with the TK ATBM system.

In general, ballistic missile detection is complex. For long-range missiles, DSP and satellite is the best way. US DSP and space detection are very good at it. For short-range missiles, long-range early warning radar is relatively better. During Operation Iraqi Freedom, US used AEGIS along with DSP. The result was somewhat favorable, given Iraqi missiles were extremely short ranged. Ultimately, the effectiveness of radar depends on level of technology. Not everyone has technology comparable to US.

stoip spreading lies !!! I curious as too where you got the production figures the first production J-5 is total trash resulting from poor quality control in the great leap foreward. even then proroity was given to units in northen china adn Korea.

total numbers deployed near taiwan iis less then 30. most of the sirpower is mig-15? mig-15 bis

a F-86 with 5 machine guns jamed Can NOTshoot down a Mig-15 look in th korean war thread for info on that

typical enagement
ROCF claims 3 MIg-17 shoot down with misssiles actual record 1 Mig-15bis lost AIM-9 recovered

as for Balastic missile I suggest you look up the cep of M-9 they are not scuds and certinaly accurate enough to target the airfield in case they miss the hanger a 30foot hole in the runway will do just fine

right now china has 1200-1400 M9/7 missile aimed at taiwan unkown number of cruise missile. several reginments of JH-7 adn su-30mkk plus 100-200 A-5
dont think teh taiwanese airfield can surive given the level of fire power china has

the Iraqui airfield are huge compard with what taiwan has they also have the advantage of early warning a far better SAM system and 10years of war experince
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
darth sidious said:
stoip spreading lies !!! I curious as too where you got the production figures the first production J-5 is total trash resulting from poor quality control in the great leap foreward. even then proroity was given to units in northen china adn Korea.

total numbers deployed near taiwan iis less then 30. most of the sirpower is mig-15? mig-15 bis

a F-86 with 5 machine guns jamed Can NOTshoot down a Mig-15 look in th korean war thread for info on that

typical enagement
ROCF claims 3 MIg-17 shoot down with misssiles actual record 1 Mig-15bis lost AIM-9 recovered

the Iraqui airfield are huge compard with what taiwan has they also have the advantage of early warning a far better SAM system and 10years of war experince


How exactly does the stuff you quoted have anything to do with what you posted? Where is cabbageman guilty of spreading lies? Where is there info regarding F-86s with their guns jammed shooting down MiGs? Is that supposed to mean that all of Taiwan's F-86s were incapable of shooting down MiGs because none of them had operational machine guns? I don't dispute the fact that the ROCAF's figures are exaggerated. Nevertheless, I think we can believe that indeed there was a fair number of MiGs shot down, either by machine gun fire or AIM-9Bs.

Maybe it's just me, but if I were to accuse someone of spreading lies I'd at least provide credible evidence to back it up.

That said, I had a hard time understanding the first part of your post, so if I misunderstood you I apologize and by all means correct me.

I'm not going to dispute your "typical engagement" claim, but I doubt that the PLAAF recovers AIM-9s all that often.

In addition, I'm somewhat dubious of your statement that Iraq had better early warning and FAR better SAM systems compared to Taiwan. Can you elaborate further?
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
sry darth, their certainly were migs downed in. whilst the f-86's 6 .50 caliber guns might have been weak compared to the migs cannons, its absurd to say no Migs were lost.
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
MIGleader said:
sry darth, their certainly were migs downed in. whilst the f-86's 6 .50 caliber guns might have been weak compared to the migs cannons, its absurd to say no Migs were lost.

5 out of the 6 machine gun jamed you tell me how to shoot down a mig with 1 M2 12.7mm machine gun

off course there were losses but no where near what the ROCF claimed
 

cabbageman

New Member
See any PLA official history for the J-5 production figure. Unlike combat records, aircraft productions aren’t disputed.

ROCAF did not say 30 MiG-17 was shot down. According to PLAAF official history, during Korea War PLA lost 231 aircraft. Even the official number admits losses of MiG-15.

I already said BM is accurate enough for runways but not HAS.

M-7s are too short ranged. PLA will use DF-11, DF-15, and DF-21.

Iraq had SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, and Roland VII / Crotale. Taiwan has PAC-2+, I-HAWK, TK-2, TK-1.
 
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