ROC subs

The_Zergling

Junior Member
Correct if I'm wrong (it's been a while since I've seen the official numbers) but doesn't the 12B price include the PAC-3 missiles plus the anti-submarine aircraft? Or is the whole package 18.3B? I'm getting different numbers from a bunch of different sources, and I'd appreciate it if someone could provide an accurate number.

The price is still pretty damn extreme for a small country like Taiwan though, which is one of the reasons the arms budget hasn't been passed, or even really discussed in the legislature yet.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
The_Zergling said:
Correct if I'm wrong (it's been a while since I've seen the official numbers) but doesn't the 12B price include the PAC-3 missiles plus the anti-submarine aircraft? Or is the whole package 18.3B? I'm getting different numbers from a bunch of different sources, and I'd appreciate it if someone could provide an accurate number.
The price is still pretty damn extreme for a small country like Taiwan though, which is one of the reasons the arms budget hasn't been passed, or even really discussed in the legislature yet.

Back in 2001, the Bush administration authorized arms sales to Taiwan that was valued at $20 to $30 billion USD. To sum it up, the US wanted to sell older stuff for a large bucket of cash. The ROC government, after many discussions over 3 year period, decided on a $18.2 billion package (NT610 billion).

This arms package was highly controversial, so they de-linked some items, then reduced others, and got it down to $15 bil, then $14 bil, then $12.3 billion. It still failed to pass in the Legislative Yuan 45 times. It's a political hot potato and one KMT legistlator has just announced his "price" for supporting the bill:

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KMT offers government a deal on arms procurement
The Kuomintang (KMT) suggested on Wednesday that it would be willing to agree to a "reasonable arms procurement budget bill" if the government agreed to open direct transportation links with China.

KMT Legislator Ting Shou-chung (丁守中) proposed on Wednesday during the party's central standing committee meeting that the government should open direct links "in exchange for" the passage of the arms procurement budget bill in the Legislature.


While I am pro-KMT and support in opening direct links between PRC and ROC, I think this kind of deal making is what makes politics really scummy. Arms purchase deals with national security and should be evaluated based on need and merit, and should not be linked to commercial travel. =/
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
adeptitus said:
While I am pro-KMT and support in opening direct links between PRC and ROC, I think this kind of deal making is what makes politics really scummy. Arms purchase deals with national security and should be evaluated based on need and merit, and should not be linked to commercial travel.

Well that's political reality for you. Do you think the KMT would authorise the budget if they got elected, or only ok the non-sub aspects? Some newspapers have commented that they were fighting for such weapons before the 2000 election.

(Edited for politics)
 
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darth sidious

Banned Idiot
FuManChu said:
But that's politics for you. No offence, but I think the legislators are still sore they lost in 2004. So they think they can push the executive around.One reason why Taiwan should have a figurehead President and PM (as head of the largest party coalition) leading the executive in my opinion.

Poltics is not allowed in this forum if you want to start flaming war like you did in the key forum go to CMF :nono: :nono:
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
adeptitus said:
Arms purchase deals with national security and should be evaluated based on need and merit, and should not be linked to commercial travel. =/

Wise words. So let's examine the need and merit of Taiwan then, shall we?

I posted this on my blog and I'll repost it here...

Arguments against the arms budget point out (rightly so) that if Taiwan puts all of its defense eggs into arms that will not be deployed until the distant future (Confirmed to be at least 2010 or after) there is a disturbing chance that they will not be relevant in the event that they are actually needed (Taiwan's Ministry of National Defense and the DPP’s (the current ruling political party) Department of Chinese Affairs (2003), all unanimously predicted that between 2006 and 2010 the military balance between Mainland China and Taiwan will tip against Taiwan and the potential for war will reach a critical point. ) and also might prevent other more effective purchases from materializing. (Because of cost, among other factors)

Historically, arms purchaes have been solely within the decision-making power of Taiwan's president. However, an arguable point is that since Taiwan is now a democracy (a relatively recent turn of events, arms purchases wise), decisions should be initiated by Taiwan and decided in a democratic matter.

Taiwan's government should strongly reconsider the current arms budget, for the below reasons.

--Taiwan cannot survive in a prolonged arms race with China
--The weapons are not the best suited for defense
--The deal is too fucking expensive

It is still arguable that Taiwan will still need defensive arms considering China's stance on not rejecting use of military force to unite the two countries, so it's obvious that we can't just scrap the idea of buying arms. So what would be a better deal considering the financial situation and effectiveness?

From a purely defensive military standpoint, the submarines (which happen to be the most expensive item on the shopping list) would have to go. US apprehensions regarding capability and America's nuclear submarine-based strategy aside, the main reason would be that as of now it is hard to find a manufacturing country, and the extended delivery team (estimated minimum of at least 8 years) would mean that the submarines wouldn't be around to do the job that they're needed for. Even more discouraging is the probability that they would in fact be of little use against PRC forces.

Using the same concerns, the P-3 anti-submarine aircraft might be considered, but there probably ought to be a reduction in terms of both numbers and (more importantly) price. The current 40 billion NT price tag is far too high for the limited number of aircraft provided. Other defense weapons that could be a better deal for the money include rapid response helicopters, anti-ship mines, land based anti-ship missiles and SAMs are all legitimate useful defensive weapons and should also be taken under careful consideration.

Alternately, the money could also be spent on the strengthening of important military structures, such as airfield runways, fighter shelters, ammo and oil depots, communications, control centers, and other vital military assets. The cost of doing this kind of preparation would be relatively low, but would also serve to strengthen Taiwan's ability to survive a potentially crippling first strike. What's more this money could be spent domestically, helping the economy. (Although this is a lame excuse, as argued by myself against myself on this blog. God I do hate shooting myself in the foot.)

This kind of mindset is more oriented towards "defensive defense" and would arguably be a better direction for Taiwan's government to take.

Now what is the lame sounding "soft power" that I noted in the title, and what does it have to do with Taiwan's future national security?

Soft power encompasses several different but equally important elements. First off, Taiwan is well suited to serve as a bridge among China, Japan, and the US. With its advantageous geographic location, Taiwan can also be a hub for maritime and continental cultures. Something that is somewhat unique and is worthy of mention is the familiarity of the general Taiwanese population towards Chinese, Japanese, and American culture and language, making Taiwan the least disliked member among the China-America-Japan-Taiwan structure. (Albeit 3 big and 1 small)

Other sifnificant attributes to Taiwan's potential "soft power" is its (relatively) well functioning democratic system, free market economy, and arguably liberal society. If Taiwan plays its cards right the economy will flourish for a long time to come.

And most people probably wouldn't disagree that official negotiations between Taiwan and the PRC would probably be more effective in easing cross-strait tensions and improving national security than the procurement of weapons.

Taiwan's future niche depends more on the growing of "soft power", although it is indeed absolutely necessary that Taiwan maintain a certain degree of "hard power" (Which is where the "defensive defense" part comes in. The best route for Taiwan to take in defending against the PRC is to preserve air superiority over the island after surviving a quick and sudden strike, as opposed to anti-amphibious or aerial landing. If the PRC does not have confidence in achieving a quick and painless success in a first strike, the likelihood of one happening diminishes. (Note I say here diminishes as opposed to disappears.)

In conclusion, based on the above thinking, Taiwan's military procurement should not be limited to the 3 items proposed in the 18.3 billion arms package, especially given that the current package is void of immediate practicality. The MND and other qualified defense specialists should explore and consider an appropriate mix if weaponry that is more economical, and pragmatic in the defense of Taiwan.

And um... yeah. That pretty much sums up my argument against the subs.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Unless if the ROCN find replacement submarines, it'd find itself without an effective sub fleet... yesterday.

From a military point of view, I think ROCN should replace its aging subs with something newer, to add additional level of deterrance. The PRC is not Taiwan's only security concern, there's also Japan and the daoyutai issue. Also, if by chance pro-TI faction takes over and PRC somehow agree to TI status, I expect the TI nationalists to start eyeing Batan islands as traditional Taiwan territory (north of 20th parallel).

The problem with the subs is that its' too expensive. The US intends to make a bucket of money off this deal and that sure doesn't suit Taiwan's own interests. So can Taiwan build its own submarine with domestic and imported technology? If a low-population nation like Sweden (9 mil) with a smaller economy & military budget can build excellent subs like the Gotland class, why can't Taiwan?
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
If a low-population nation like Sweden (9 mil) with a smaller economy & military budget can build excellent subs like the Gotland class, why can't Taiwan?

Building different military (or civilian) systems are not down only to size of the country and economy....those are factors, yeas but like in this case the more cruisal issue is that Sweden has the know-how, decades of experience in submarine building...Where as Taiwan's own warship design and building industry is somewhat limited. You cannot expect that Tawan could suddenly just start to design and build top-of-the-nocht submarines overnight?
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
Gollevainen said:
Building different military (or civilian) systems are not down only to size of the country and economy....those are factors, yeas but like in this case the more cruisal issue is that Sweden has the know-how, decades of experience in submarine building...Where as Taiwan's own warship design and building industry is somewhat limited. You cannot expect that Tawan could suddenly just start to design and build top-of-the-nocht submarines overnight?

not quite because sweden will probely never go to war they can uses lots of inported thing in their weapon system Taiwan cant do that

also alot of swedens weapons are improved versons of forgein tech
Bofors needed heavy support from Krupp before they finaly produced some decent guns
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
not quite because sweden will probely never go to war they can uses lots of inported thing in their weapon system Taiwan cant do that

also alot of swedens weapons are improved versons of forgein tech
Bofors needed heavy support from Krupp before they finaly produced some decent guns

well this migth be true in fighter Aircraft manufacturing, But generally i find that rahter odd statement, when most of other european war industry has so long been the one importing innovations from bofors, not other way around.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Gollevainen said:
Building different military (or civilian) systems are not down only to size of the country and economy....those are factors, yeas but like in this case the more cruisal issue is that Sweden has the know-how, decades of experience in submarine building...Where as Taiwan's own warship design and building industry is somewhat limited. You cannot expect that Tawan could suddenly just start to design and build top-of-the-nocht submarines overnight?

darth sidious said:
not quite because sweden will probely never go to war they can uses lots of inported thing in their weapon system Taiwan cant do that
also alot of swedens weapons are improved versons of forgein tech
Bofors needed heavy support from Krupp before they finaly produced some decent guns

Taiwan does have access to limited amount of US technology. If we look at the IDF aircraft, it contains a lot of imported stuff from the US -- no point in reinventing the wheel. But you can always by the wheel and improve it.

I just don't like the idea of burning $12 billion to buy arms from someone else. For that much, Taiwan can build its own boat docks and shipyards, and train thousands of engineers to work on the project. Yes the Swedes have more experience, but you gain experience by doing it and not by buying the finished product. =p
 
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